Rocco Vata

His heads obviously been turned. Bye bye

 

Scales and Montgomery have both been at Aberdeen since, neither of them are any closer to being in the first team. Aberdeen is a decent loan but it's unlikely to lead anywhere near the first team. Christie had played a lot of first team football before he came to us, being loaned to Aberdeen just shows how difficult it is for it to mean anything. Ajer is as close as I can remember to what you are suggesting.

Even if all those players go next seaso, as you suggest, it's odds on we replace them with other non-youth players. If we want to keep Vata we should have him in the first team squad this year and give him as much playing time as is possible. Given his position it's possible he could be getting 20mins on the end of games regularly. Similar to Tierney, if he does well that should increase.

These kids only get a short time to "make it". Find it hard to blame them when it comes to this sort of stage if they see a better chance elsewhere. If we can't commit on them how do we expect them to do it for us.

 

Another Dembele situation good at youth level but haven’t kicked on if he was good enough he’d be playing. Clearly not showing it in training there is a path if you’re good enough. And maybe his head is being filled with * hyping him up before he’s made it instead of letting him develop

 

The demands we have as a club are just not cohesive to bringing thru youth. We need a result every week, there’s no time to learn or progress. We need performances as soon as you pull on the jersey.

It’s no coincidence all these young players look at moving elsewhere. Half the problem is that our youth products aren’t that talented. Excusing Ben Doak in recent times we’ve not had a player come thru who would slot right into regular first team football. To slot in and play title winning/CL level football at 18/19/20 is just not realistic with the level of talent we have here in Scotland.


It’s sad to say but this might be a wise career choice.

 

Like others have said, we can't tell for sure if he will have been a hit or not.
Chances are, the majority of youth talent will fail.
But some do make it.

The issue isn't "if they are good enough he would be playing", it's the fact NO ONE is getting a chance regardless, to the stage that guys like Foal, Morrison etc are all leaving long before they waste a year or two waiting their turn, that inevitably never comes.



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Rodger's has only been in the door since June, took him to Portugal and Asia and gave him several 45 mins in those Portugal games, the same minutes our 1st team players got. That didn't encourage Rocco to sign a new deal or stop him from switching to a bigger agent to try and drive up interest so I'm not what he or anyone else is expecting.

Like you say Christie had a lot of gametime elsewhere, whether he stays here or moves to a club like Torino, he's still gonnae have to go out on loan and get that match experience before he's ready to step in at the level of club he expects to be playing at.

Why then would Rodgers even bother putting him on the bench for our first 2 games when we all know he's switched agents to get a move?

 

Squad was about a third youth for those trips, as had a lot returning from internationals and recovering (CCV, Johnston, Ralston). So by no means is that inclusion indicating anything in terms of Rodgers intent. Pretty much all of the youth players got similar game time did they not?

These kids only have one career, and their chances of making it here are incredibly slim. The biggest benefit Vata has had at Celtic from what I can see is his name, not anything we've particularly done. Not saying here he's not getting good coaching, just that from what I can see he's done what's been asked of him, so what is there to complain about.

From what I've seen he's been pretty decent each and every chance he's been given. I've already said what I think we should do if we want to keep him. Said it consistently about other prospects. If we won't play them why should they stay.

The lads got every right to change agents if his current one isn't up to it. End of the day it's his life that is affected most.

 

I get that as I also mentioned in here previously managers at our club have to win so might not be as willing to play the youth with the pressures of winning etc. as they know the fans etc would be up in arms.

 

Benfica fans do not accept losing the league better than Celtic fans do, if that is what you are saying. In minor leagues (such as Portugal, the Netherlands, Scotland and others) there is space for youngsters to develop but Benfica youngsters play because they are simply better than the senior players. What Renato Sanches and João Félix did in 6 months when they first appeared was magical. Both lead the team as teenagers. In the current squad 2 of the most important players are kids as well (19y António Silva and 18y João Neves). Of course this was a result of a great deal of investment - for 20 years we produced 2 class players (Rui Costa and Manuel Fernandes) and nowadays we pop 1 potential star per year. But youngsters play because they are very good not because Benfica fans are patient. We are not.

Now the challenge is to compete at the highest level in the Champions League as well. Benfica reached the last 8 (quarter finals) in the past two seasons so maybe some day we can reach the semis. For a club such as Benfica (or Celtic) the only way to compete at the highest level is by having stellar young players. We are now at an interesting phase where we are mixing former talented players as well. Di María (not homegrown) and Gonçalo Guedes (homegrown) came back. João Félix was rumoured to come back as well (but seems like Barcelona is the most likely destination). Bernardo Silva will most likely return in 3 years. And there are many more than may come back around ~30-33y old (Ruben Dias, Cancelo, Ederson Moraes, Renato Sanches) etc etc. Mixing these renowned players - which even at a later stage of their careers would most likely go collect the paycheck if not for the emotional connection - with the young kids might be the formula to stay competitive in Europe.

Apologies for the wall of text. The main idea is that Celtic is in a favourable environment to give a chance to youngsters (because you play in a minor league such as Benfica or Ajax) provided that they are good. Ofc Portuguese kids are naturally more talented to play football but we producing 1 player per decade to 1 player per year was a direct result of having a strategy and investing. And we also recruit players playing abroad to add to the talent pool (Ederson Moraes, Jan Oblak, Diego Moreira and Cher Ndour are some examples; City frequently does this as well).

 

Are your players reluctant to leave you?

Ours actively want our as early as possible whereas it seems yours wait and see if they're in the picture before collectively deciding/being told their futures are better off elsewhere..

There's no real pathway here and the development is stunted massively by competing against part time juniors in the 5th tier. Benfica have teams in the second tier. Huge difference..

 

Players seem to leave on good terms with the club. If the player is really good at some point we are unable to keep him (and our model also is based on having sales anyway...) but for the most part we should be able to retain a player for at least 3-4 years. If he is promoted with 18-19y we should be able to keep him until he is 22-23y. The only player who forced the sale in recent years was Enzo Fernandez, we wanted to rejected the 120M€ offer but in the last day of the winter window he said he would not play more and we caved. Not homegrown ofc. That does not mean that homegrown players do not want to leave at some point, because most want to play in the Premier League or simply earn a bigger paycheck. But most are happy to stay some years. And I believe that most of them also understand that players like Renato Sanches or João Félix would have benefited of some more years at Benfica instead of having to deal with the pressure and hype of big transfer fees at such a young age.

Benfica B was definitely important, but that was part of the strategy. Benfica Campus (our academy) opened in 2006 and Benfica B was brought back in 2012. The first generation of academy graduates (Bernardo Silva, João Cancelo, etc) already benefited from Benfica B. Benfica B is unable to promote to the 1st division but can be relegated from the 2nd division. Is Celtic reserves team unable to promote to the 2nd tier (such as Benfica B) even if they win the league every year? If so, that is something that clubs (and Celtic is arguably the most important) can surely change.

Nowadays there is an interesting phenomenon where some players are already able to go from the youth teams directly to the first team, barely playing in Benfica B: (i) António Silva played only 4 matches for Benfica B and at 19y old already has more than 40 matches for Benfica; (ii) João Neves played only 11 matches for Benfica B and at 18y old already has more than 20 matches for Benfica. 10 years ago it seemed impossible for an academy graduate to spend less than 1-2 seasons playing in Benfica B but now some players are able to. Probably because the club has much more experience helping kids making the jump to professional football and can anticipate the difficulties that most of them face (physically, emotionally, etc).

 

We have a b team in the 5th tier. An */semi pro league and can't even get in to our 4th tier..

It's terrible..

Hence us just sending some of our kids out to a new link up with an Austrian second tier side..

 

I suppose the question is why sign Tilio instead of giving Vata a proper chance, which is fair enough imo.

At the same time the boys 18, a new deal and a year out on loan would have done him wonders.

Ah well, another what if, we really need to sort out our youth pathway either way.

 

Think thats exactly it. If we don't sign Tillio then theres space for Vata in the squad.

It's that sort of thing that lays down a marker for other prospects to show there is a pathway, similarly instead of signing Starfelt, or Yuki we could have developed Welsh and then sold him on as an experienced pro and had the ability to sign Largerboy if we wanted.

 

Neglect to developing young Scottish players is one of the few real criticisms I'd make of Ange's tenure. Not much interest in signing them or developing the ones we had. Hopefully under Rodgers we'll see more investment in local lads, even if that ultimately means sticking them out on loan until they can cut it in the first team.

 

Scottish football is hindering itself by not having a reserve league where up and coming youth players and first team players who were coming back from injury or even dropped from the first team to get their form back .
We have seen in our past players like mcgrain and macari and Connelly play in reserve games with the Lisbon lions who were coming back from injury.
The youth players are missing out in that experience and that's the only way we can find out if young players are good enough but again Scottish clubs are hindering this progress by saying they can't afford a reserve side but they cut our allocation at their home games .

 

The one aspect of his style I disagreed with, he was adamant that he wouldn’t hand out a chance unless they proved they deserved to be ahead of the guy infront of them.

That’s not something that will happen often with youth players, once in ten years or so that’ll happen and often due to injuries of the guys in the first team and a slice of luck.

I understand his point of view, as Celtic manager a draw is a crisis and panic around the fans. And with the squad he assembled other more established guys were choking to play and would be benched and brought on. So there’s not a lot of space there, and that’ll keep a squad of 18 odd that could be first team happy there.

But if you do that, then guys like Vata need developed in another way. He bossed the league the b teams in at 16. At 17 he should be in the Championship. At 18 a Premiership team on a long contract. By 19 experienced in these leagues Nd pushing for a place.

And we never do that. Thank * we got Lawal out now, but its a season too late, he got nothing out of last year.

 

Reserve league was a thing youths would go in too dwindle and stagnate. Where the B team are is good for the talented players under 16/17/18 to learn the physical side of a game, but once they learn that they should be away immediately somewhere else to learn it at a higher level.

And we rarely do that right, I can only think of two, Ajer and McGregor.

And Calmac was a large bit of luck, because Lenny wanted to punt him off the back of the reputation he’d built in a season down there because he didn’t think he was good enough.

Ronny came in, he impressed, he took his chance that came under the new manager

 

Because everyone on here is always moaning about bringing I new signings. Imagine the meltdown if the new signings included youth players being moved up. "Biscuit tin" comments galore

 

Inclution of b teams in the league pyramid is by far the best way to go imo. The best academies in Europe have their talent play in the second or third tier, training in top facilities with the best coaches, being drilled in the same tactics and playing style as the first team from a young age.

Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Buquets, Pedro etc played seasons for Barcelona B and C teams in third or fourth tier before making the grades.

Cristiano Ronaldo came through the Sporting academy playing for their b team.

Jota was crowned POTS in Portuguese second tier when playing for Benfica B.

Benzema played two seasons of third tier football for Lyon B.

Neymar played for Santos in the state championship team before getting the chance in Serie A.

Neuer and Müller played b team football for Schalke and Bayern.

Sending talent out on loan to Dunfermline or Queen's Park won't help a young talent, it will set them back development wise. We should be able to nurture our best talent at Lennoxtown until they're ready to make the step up to the first team.