Poppy Thread.

Many of the people who buy/wear a poppy will goto chruch to remember these folk who fought and died. the majority certainly won't.

 

Do I care what the media say about Celtic..

Of course.. The media is the biggest channel for providing information...

Do either of you guys who don't give a * about the media , give a toss when the media use the term "old firm" when their story gives adverse publicity about Celtic FC or the support , when it's something that doesn't involve them..

Speaking for myself only , I feel the way the supporters went about their banner display brought adverse publicity onto other supporters , when it was something that didn't involve us.. The media could spin this out to make us all to be of the same thinking when as you've seen from reading posts on this thread , many of us have had to come on and make our own opinions heard to state that the GB or the other supporters groups who say the message represents the majority , do not speak for us..

 

I think this above represents clear and correct thinking in the midst of this whole mess.

I've tried my best to glean as much info as possible on the root of this whole thing, and, trying to remain objective as I can be I hope several things can be now taken as the basis for a resolution of this.

-Earl Haig Fund, trading as PoppyScotland (that's who we are putting on the shirts next week) initiated contact with Scottish clubs and governing body 3 years ago with regard to carrying the symbol. The board essentially copped out in previous years, giving the usual media sources ammo for attack, when they should have simply given the real reasons rather than bury their head in the sand. From what I have read, those reasons were the fact that engagements with grassroots on the issue at the time (clubs, forums etc etc) revealed somehwere in the order of an 80-20 split in feeling the poppy embroidered on the hoops being a generally unsuitable or offensive act to undertake.

-This should thus shed a bright light on the root of this whole mess . That despite this previous knowledge the board bent to external pressure and chose to have this symbol this year. Essentially, they have played the game juggling of the lesser of two evils, with two years of unwise bluffing to the media in one direction, and this year changing tack as the heat was turned up on them by the self same elements of Scottish society. Elements we at Celtic surely know all too well by now.

-Given that we seem to have established the board had known full well the act and symbology to be politically charged...if not in general, then most certainly for the majority of supporters of Celtic (please some people, let the delusion of being nonpolitical rest at this compromise) then this left them open to accusations of hypocrisy given the previous years of clampdown at Celtic Park.

-Clearly any dialogue the board and fans, including GB, had regarding this perceived hypocrisy, failed miserably. GB's protest banner in response contravened current rules, seemed over zealous and not a little poorly thought out. The whole thing has ballooned exponentially, with the current situation being the promise of bans. Again the board have painted themselves into a corner insomuch as if they go ahead, there seems to be a certain backlash brewing, yet if it transpires to be yet more bluffing and preening for the benefit of those watching and waiting rubbing their hands this would demonstrate further the rabbit-in-the-headlights manner of action thus far.


...... I have tried to lay out the factors as objectively as I can, I hope we can agree on most of the central aspects lending themselves to this mess.

In my opinion GB should take a conciliatory line in light of their hamfistedness and also to simply offer an olive branch

The board should recind the talk of bans in light of the fact that we know they simply bluffed it in previous years rather than have the balls to speak for what they knew to be the feelings of most of their own fans on the issue at the outset. If they'd acted decently at that point, perhaps a dignified solution for Celtic, and for charity and society in general would have led to the adoption of something like a white poppy or warchild emblem.

If bans were to follow, there is the very real prospect of a nightmare scenario arising, as we can see from the debate already.. and this would have all been ultimately sewn by the poor, rudderless leadership on the issue at the outset.

Personally, I would be contacting Celtic directly, which would be a rare step for me to take on any issue regarding the club.

 

So you would happily sit down shut up and be like the rest of the sheep in the pen if it makes the media not say bad stuff about Celtic, very good.

* what the media says. They are always going to refer to us and rangers as the old firm no matter what anyone says and no matter what they've never had a good thing to say about Celtic. Get over it.

 

Im sure the group tryed to contact Celtic in a previous year for the use of the white poppy instead of the bloodstained red poppy, Celtic didn't want to hear AFAIK..

 

Neil Lennon has backed the club's intentions of banning those responsible. You would think that someone from his background would understand but instead he has backed down to the PLC. Extremely dissapointed with Lennon, and that's coming from one of his biggest supporters.

 

no one should be getting banned for speaking the truth and protesting something they dont like or agree. i think its shocking tbh.

 

What did you expect him to do? Go against the board in this matter?

I take his agreement with board's decision with a pinch of salt as I think Lennon too has similar opinion to fans' and doesn't want poppy on our shirts. Just my guess.

With all this * surrounding Celtic right now, he didn't want to put more crap on us and take the opposite side of club's official stance.

 

If the club feel the banner was attacking them then they are within their rights to fight back.. Can never allow a section of the support to dictate to the club what is and isn't acceptable..

 

Of course not but I thought he would have fed the media a cliche like "I'll only be discussing footballing matters" or something along those lines.

Well we certainly sure as * should not allow war mongerers like John Reid to dictate what is acceptable and what is not.

 

I live in England and ive had 5 different people come up to me saying celtic fans are scum and this is from sheffield united and Derby fans, the news hasnt taken to well in England anyway.. i found myself having to defend the support and saying why they did it even though i personally dont agree with it..

 

I had to do the same. I was saying things like, it's a minority etc.. There's no reasoning with some. But I can understand to a degree because they see it at face value and don't consider all angles. Not that they ever would.

 

Just thought the supporters of political and social revolution might want to have a wee read at the Bravery of the fallen Celts, from the club site.


THIS Thursday, November 11, marks the 92nd anniversary of the ending of the First World War. At 11 minutes past 11 on the 11th day of the 11th month, the guns finally fell silent after four years of * fighting which claimed the lives of over 16million people

It was a conflict which affected individuals, families, communities and organisations in every country caught up in the war, and Celtic Football Club was no different.

As the world was plunged into war in 1914, all aspects of life changed and as millions headed off to the Front, the Great War was to have its affect on Celtic and a number of its players.

As the war progressed the implications for the game were significant. Player salaries were reduced, employment in munitions factories on Saturdays resulted in a sharp fall in attendance, both by spectators and players and the pressure to complete the fixture card was significant.

Indeed, Celtic were forced to play two matches, against Raith Rovers and Motherwell, on the same day in 1916 in order to comply.

Football grounds were viewed as an ideal venue for recruitment drives and during one such event, Celtic manager Willie Maley endorsed a mock trench warfare at Celtic Park designed to lure players and spectators alike to the Front.

Such drives had their successes and the supporters and officials of Hearts and Queen’s Park watched as their first-team players enlisted almost en bloc.Whilst there wasn't a mass exodus from Celtic, a number of players did enlist and sadly, some failed to return.

Willie Angus, John McLaughlin, Archie McMillan, Leigh Roose, Donnie McLeod, Robert Craig and Peter Johnstone all played on the field of Celtic Park and fought in the Great War and for their lives in the fields of France and Belguim.

The story of Willie Angus, a reserve team player at Celtic Park is quite astounding. Angus was awarded the Victoria Cross in 1915 for his incredible bravery in rescuing his wounded commanding officer.

Despite coming under heavy fire from the Germans in 'no man's land' near Givenchy in France, Angus risked his own life and was wounded over 40 times in the process.

As a result of the injuries he sustained Angus lost one eye and was invalided out of the army. On his return he maintained a close affinity to the club and his bravery was officially acknowledged when a street in Carluke was named in his honour.

Welsh international goalkeeper Leigh Richmond Roose came to Celtic Park on loan from Sunderland in March of 1910. Securing his services at Celtic was the result of a somewhat bizarre deal.

Roose had tended the goal for the Scotland v Wales international at Rugby Park the previous week in a match which led to Jimmy McMenemy being injured as a result of some nasty play by Welshman Llewellyn Davies.

Thus when Celtic keeper Davy Adams was floored with pneumonia for the Scottish Cup semi against Clyde, it made perfect sense to secure the services of Roose as a form of compensation.

Unfortunately Roose, who was a doctor of bacteriology, failed to keep a clean sheet for his one appearance and Celtic lost the tie 3-1.

Roose was an extremely wealthy man, and a gentleman. Indeed, he apparently ran the length of the pitch to congratulate and shake the hand of the Clyde player who had scored the third goal and ousted Celtic out of the cup.

Roose went on to play for Aston Villa and Arsenal before joining the 9th Royal Fusiliers in 1914.His repeated bravery led to the Military Medal in 1914.

Sadly during the Battle for Montauban where hundreds lost their lives, Roose was pronounced missing in action, presumed dead on October 7, 1917. A dedication to his memory is inscribed on the Thiepval memorial.

Donnie McLeod signed for Celtic from Stenhousemuir on May 10, 1902. McLeod, dubbed 'Slasher' due to his sheer speed and ability was a two-footed full back who was an instant hit with the Celtic support.

McLeod was an integral part of the side who kick-started the club's unprecedented feat of six championships in a row from 1904, and during his six-and-a-half years with the Celts he made 155 appearances.

McLeod's partnership with Jimmy Weir was invincible and when he was transferred to Middlesbrough in 1910, Weir followed him south to form a duo described as 'the most dogged, dour and fearless pair of backs in England.'

McLeod was in the 466th Battery of the 65th Royal Field Artillery and died in Belgium from injuries sustained in action on October 6, 1917. He is buried in the Dozinghem military cemetery in Poperinge in Belgium.

When Robert Craig arrived at Celtic Park he was the * of a practical joke initiated by his new team-mates. Signed from Vale of Garnock Strollers on May 10, 1906, Craig was convinced by his team mates that a large signing on fee was available and all he had to do was ask the rather stern Willie Maley.

Maley must have liked him as his petulance was rewarded with the acceptance of his signature and a three-year career with the Celts.

Craig spent most of his period farmed out on loan but did the business when it was required and in 13 first-team appearances conducted himself well. Craig was recruited to the 5th Battalion of the South Wales Borderers and was wounded during a German attack on the town of Messines in Belgium.

He died from the injuries he sustained eight days later on April 19, 1918. He is buried in the Boulogne Eastern Cemetery.

Probably the best known Celt to have fallen in the Great War is centre-half and utility man, Peter Johnstone, who signed for Celtic on January 9, 1908.

Johnstone made his debut in April the following year, the first appearance of 233 for the club. During this period Johnstone scored 19 goals.

Johnstone, a miner signed from Glencraig Celtic, was an idol of the Celtic faithful and was a deserved recipient of such accolade when he lifted his first Scottish Cup medal after the final with Clyde in 1912.

In the same year he added another gong to his collection when Celtic met and beat Clyde in the Charity Cup final in an amazing tie that Celtic won by seven corners to nil.

Johnstone was part of the infamous side who contested for the 'missing' Ferencvaros Cup in Budapest against Burnley in 1914.

The game ended in a draw and it was reluctantly agreed that a return would be played in Burnley. Celtic won and the trophy never materialised but compensation was afforded to Johnstone and his team mates when they secured the Double in 1914.

Johnstone was eager to transfer from the field of play to the field of War, and was recruited to firstly the 14th Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in 1916 and latterly the 6th Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders.

He initiated this move in order to secure quicker passage to the Front. Whilst eager to defend his country, Johnstone was also always willing to assist the Celts and during his army training he travelled overnight from England to help his team-mates oust Rangers from the Glasgow Cup on September 23, 1916.

To the absolute shock of the Celtic faithful Johnstone lost his life during the Battle of Arras which was fought on the 15-16th of May 1917. A Celtic legend, Johnstone's death was a huge loss to Celtic Football Club.A dedication to his memory is inscribed on Bay 8 of the Arras Memorial in the Fauborg d'Amiens Cemetery.

Celtic's reserve side was also depleted due to the impact of the Great War and the following players also lost their lives. The list is not exhaustive. Reserve team player John McLaughlin, whose previous career spanned periods with Mossend, Hibs and Renton was killed in action on May 10, 1917. McLaughlin, who served in the 11th Battalion of the Highland Light Infantry, is buried in the Etaples Military Cemetery.

Fellow reserve player Archie McMillan died of his injuries between the 21st and the 23rd of November of the same year during an attempt to capture the village of Fontaine Notre-Dame in Northern France.

McMillan andeight of his regiment lost their lives in what was a successful mission. He is buried in the Rocquigny-Equancort Rd British Cemetery, Manancourt.

In this month, when pausing for reflection is the tradition, we should perhaps take a few moments to remember the Celtic legends who were so greatly affected by the horror of war.

 

^^^^ What's your point ? ?

I have never met anyone who has anything against the fallen in the World Wars and if the poppy solely represented them then, quite simply, we would not be having this debate right now.

 

We all know the horror of war.we respect the dead of EVERY country.
Somehow the symbol that is the poppy has been HIJACKED. to represent very well paid members of an illegal organisation.

 

Great post mate and I agree with most of what you've said but this is how I see things,

The Greem Brigade in the unveiling of this banner have opened the floodgates for a tidal wave of negativity that reflects badly on our club end of story, I don't think this up for argument.

I can honestly understand the message they sought to deliver and aspects of it I agree with, however my true meaning of Sunday is rememberance for those fallen in the pursuit of our freedom during World War 1, the media are to blame for the responses deemed negative in recent events in my mind, it's getting as bad as Haloween and Christmas and it has been moved to market the military in a good light for the campaigns recently fought in Iraq & Afghanistan etc.. (in for a penny in for a pound well and truely) this type of media hype and marketing surrounding our so called modern heros only serves to endear them to the majority of the UK in that respect and this is as much a crime as what they done during campaigns,

I think if we take a rationale view of this the majority can see why the Green Brigade made the points they did on the banner but in my view this could have been delivered in a much better way.

As I mentioned in the thread that got locked I do buy a poppy due to personal reasons but I don't wear one, I can't forget the actions of the brits in Northern Ireland and the crimes they inflicted on many of my family and friends down the years, but the long and short of it is the poppy should not be representitive of these *.

 

That is a brilliant song by the way. Its hard to find a good version of it on the web though. The best versions are probably * gaughan and also Andy Chung. This is a version by Luke Kelly. He always impressed me by his willingness and not bad ability to sing in Scottish folk songs in broad Scots dialect even though he is Irish. It cant be easy but he does really well. A lot of Scottish folk songs are in broad Scots.

YouTube - Luke Kelly - Freedom Come All Ye

 

[QUOTE
What is annoying a lot of folk is that the GB is acting as though they represent the entire Celtic support which is obviously not the case.[/QUOTE]

The GB should remember , they are really just jumped up cheer leaders.

:frilly::frilly::frilly::frilly:

 

Celtic should be apologising again, for even mentioning banning the GB and for the fact they were the ones who have caused all this negative attention (which has resulted in the attention being dragged off the SFA).

Yes, the banner could be wrong but the only reason it was there is because once again Celtic are wrongly adding the poppy to the Celtic shirt.

All of this could have been avoided by Celtic, if they had made the right choice regarding poppies on our strip, so the fact they are contemplating banning anyone is a disgrace.

 

there were hundereds of thousands who died during the famine, engineered by the brits.