Neil Lennon

I don’t know they could’ve been but they were bottom with only like 10 games left when he was sacked anyway. Which dress it how ye like still bad. Hibs with a “good manager” should be placing higher than 7th… especially a couple years ago when the likes of st mirren etc weren’t nearly as good as they are now. Also still remains though he was sacked by all 4. Have to say some of the performances in the league for us his last year here were non existent. Was a horrible season but he heavily added to it

 

Yes and if you read what I edited my post to I said what I meant to say was….. or did you also wipe that from your mind? Hahahahaah

and no I didn’t forget it happened I just forgot to type it in…. So then I edited it….. happens sometimes. I’m sure there is a lot of things he did well but I don’t think we’re going to put every single result in… same way you’re not going to do that either or it might take a few hours. He won the league the next year. Then he lost it and was sacked. After being sacked from his last 2 clubs. Then he got sacked by his next club. Might have left out a couple matches that he won there aswell but what I say is still true.

So basically yeah I don’t think his CV/history looks good since he left us after his first spell. I think he was shockingly bad his last season with us. Yes

 

You just forgot to type it in when your whole point was premised on this omission? Come on now.

This is not points scoring: "Ha ha you got it wrong and I didn't ha ha. I don't make mistakes like that! 1 point for me"
In fact I do make mistakes like that (and I'll give you an example below to show good faith*). It's important because we all suffer from cognitive biases and I want to argue two things: That fans are especially vulnerable to these biases when it comes to NL and that the very fact that you forgot a whole season (or even if you just forgot to type the very data that would have undermined your point) is a red flag that strong cognitive biases are in operation.

To me, the second is just obvious, so let me focus on the first.

1) Recency bias: Lenny's last season was spectacularly bad and quite different from all his other seasons. This means that the natural tendency to give extra weight to more recent events really gives an unfair impression.

2) Confirmation bias: what happened that season provoked such strong emotions in many people to the point that I actually took a break from here. These are some of the conditions that encourage people to look for confirming evidence. I strongly suspect that this is what happened to you when you forgot (or forgot to type) an entire season that contradicted your point.

3) The anchoring effect: Lenny's first stint was between Mowbray and Ronny. His second was between Rodgers and Postecoglou. I don't think any serious person wants to argue that Lenny is as good a manager as Rodgers or Ange! This means we might gloss over some disappointing days at Hampden in his first stint and gloss over an entire treble in his second.

Finally, I have nothing to say about what happened at those other clubs. This is because I only see Hibs when they play us (and Lenny showed up quite well there) and never watch Bolton or that Cypriot team. I know nothing about thesse clubs and their problems, issues and politics (I can't even remember the name of the Cypriot club). If you want to debate those facts, you'll have to find someone who knows more about them than me.


* I promised you an example where I have done this: I am very fond of Ronny for reasons to do with what happened in my life in his first season. I've been pulled up a few times on here (e.g. by Devlin) for misremembering facts, such as being convinced that Ronny made the players fitter when in reality, the opposite was the case.

 

If you are implying I forgot about that entire season you unfortunately are wrong. As I said in my edit I meant to say he won the league when he took over midway-near end of season and the next, then the next he lost.
What I actually said was he won that season he took over then the next he lost.
I didn’t forget the entire season I forgot a couple of words unintentionally as I typed it that’s why I edited it then after seeing your response and seeing what I typed. So you can calm down there mate

I see the rest of your points but mine was simple his managing at the clubs on record was ultimately deemed bad and hence why they sacked him…. I don’t need you to debate them they are facts. If you don’t know that’s fine just say what you thought of him here. I was referring to his managerial career after his first spell including them clubs and I said it’s not good.
Thanks for the speech though

 

It's important to stict to your original words here, as they are much clearer than your different new formulations of what you said. Let me quote you again:

Which is factually incorrect and they key here is that the very point you were making doesn't work if you include the correct facts, so it's not a random omission. Anyway, and the exact quote is there for you again if you want to think about it. It's up to you want to do with the things I've pointed out.

Sorry if I seem like a d***. I absolutely have biases and make mistakes too and I feel very uncomfortable when they are pointed out. At the end of the day, Lenny's not going to be getting a call from the Spurs or Leicester any time soon; I just think he's a better manager than many remember and I don't think his name would look out of place next to some of the ones Ireland has had of late.

 

Cheers mate I’ll tell it to the therapist
And yeah I know what I said, then I edited it to what I meant to say again… something you can’t grasp, I also said that I didn’t include him topping the Europa group purposely as why would I in pointing out how bad of a manager he was? I also didn’t and wouldn’t have denied it happening… I did however mean to say lennon won the season that was already half- more than half the way through where we sat 1st place already then the next so basically won 1 league that he managed start to finish then lost the next…. But I did leave it out in the message… then when I seen your reply I read what I wrote and edited the way I intended…. If you can’t grasp that well that’s unfortunate.
And it doesn’t really work against what I was saying no because what I was saying was he lost the league after 9 ina row ina very poor manor and was
Sacked along with the other 3 jobs aswell…. He might have had some wins but that’s my point that I was making, sacked from Celtic hibs Bolton and omonia… you have biases and make mistakes. Okay congrats, I have also said either in this thread or another thread that anyone would be better than kenny right now yes. Do I think Lenny is a good manager, no. Is he better than kenny? Obviously. Would I rather him than kenny? Obviously. Would I rather a better manager? Obviously.
Rest easy mate, I don’t think you’re a * btw but I do think you may be slightly confused. I appreciate your concern though genuinely

 

This is getting silly now. You're still missing the point. You're saying that you just made a mistake and have since edited it to be what you meant, but the new version can't be what you meant, because your point wouldn't have made any sense if that were so!

What you said was this:

You said that in the context of arguing that since his first spell with us, his managerial career had been a failure. If you edit out the mistake and replace it with the truth, it undermines your whole argument:

Do you see the point? It can't have been that you just forgot to type it, because then your whole argument makes no * sense. It only makes sense if you forgot, at least in the context of your opinion of Neil Lennon, that he won a treble the following year.

 

You are really missing the point you absolute spacer
My point made sense yes because when I edited it to what I meant to say I say how when he was in charge he won the league that was already won (we were top of the league) we were basically guaranteed that on. From rodgers already having us first and the players in the team that he inherited being the players that had us first. Then the next season (1st full season in charge) he won. Then the next he lost.
So out of the two full seasons he that he was in charge after the one rodgers started and had us too he won 1 then lost 1 (league). Which is bad in my view and especially considering how bad we were. Then I also mention how he was sacked from the other clubs aswell which also makes my point of me thinking him as a manager is bad.

really mate you’re right this is very silly, instead of you understanding that or believeing that I made a simple mistake of leaving out like 3 or 4 words that I then admitted to forgetting and editing in when i noticed it, you’ve made up this whole conspiracy of cognitive bias or recency bias or whatever you said and how I’ve obviously erased years from my memory
If you can’t make sense of it I’m really sorry but that’s just not my problem, HAIL HAIL

 

But you were arguing that he'd been a failure everywhere he'd gone after leaving us, getting us over the line followed by a treble doesn't fit that.

You don't seem to realise quite how extraordinary it is to say that after getting us past the finishing line (something you downplay to a remarkable degree) he then lost the league the next season when in fact he won a treble. Just take a second to let that sink in.

Frankly, this is not an easy thing to mistype and to do so in the context of trying to argue that he was a failure, is a red flag that your opinion is not accurate. It's a pattern when you talk about Neil Lennon too. He was a failure at Hibs because of what happened in his last season? What about the fact that he got them promoted as winners in his first (and as both Stubbs and Dundee Utd proved, that is not so easy!) followed by 4th in his promotion season. Both remarkable successes.

Does Neil Lennon have flaws as a manager? Clearly. Is he a great manager of the standard of a Rodgers or an Ange? Clearly not; but to argue that he's been a failure everywhere since his first stint at us, you've really had to cherry pick your evidence.

You think I'm a spacer. OK, well I think you are a coward. You are too much of a coward to admit you were dead wrong about what you said and are just making pathetic excuses about mistyping entire treble-winning seasons out of existence.

 

Yeah he was sacked by us, hibs, Bolton and omonia where he was deemed not good enough to manage by all (hence why they sacked him).
To me if you’re after getting sacked by your last 4 clubs I would not consider that being successful tbh. And yeah mate I’m a coward because I forgot to type in “and the next” or “then the next” in my first post which I then edited back to say that I meant to say that but obviously didn’t instead of you looking and seeing how that could’ve happened you went on a mental mission to try embarrass me by repeatedly quoting the first post where I forgot it. FairPlay, we’ve established sometimes when I type messages I can make a mistake and also you’re an obsessive weirdo with possible trust issues.
Happy days

 

I didn't say you were a coward because you forgot to type in "and the next" or "then the next" (in fact the post would still have been factually wrong!), you know why I said that.
You don't actually know if he was sacked because he was "deemed not good enough", there are all sorts of other plausible reasons why mangers get sacked these days. You are stating as a fact something that you have inferred. It's certainly a plausible conclusion that some might share; but it's not a fact.
You embarrassed yourself, it wasn't me. All you had to do was admit that your original post was not accurate and therefore your original argument did not follow from that. Instead, you had to drag it out with excuses and talk of not typing the very thing that would have just so happened to undermine your whole argument. I was actually going out of my way to minimise the embarrassment, such as by mentioning times where I had done the same thing.

We haven't established that you make mistakes when you type things out, what we've established is that your initial argument was premised on something that wasn't true and that you refuse to accept that. Nor have we established that I'm an obsessive weirdo.

You know what? Your unwillingness to see the nuances where Lenny's management record is concerned is your problem. The record of what was said in our posts is there for anyone to read and frankly now you're just being abusive, so I'm going to leave you to it now.

 

Cheers pal

 

Sat and watched this whole thing, what a fantastic interview. Great to see him back smiling and enjoying talking about the club and his memories. Enjoyed that far more than I expected.

 

Despite what people say about him now he’s a Celtic legend in my book



Lenny was one of my favourites under Martin

 

Still the only manager to deliver halfway decent European results in the last decade.

 

Totally agree. Look he is not perfect and yes he got that last season badly wrong. But looking over his career as a Celtic player and otherwise as a Celtic manager he has done brilliantly overall.

 

People forget how good a player he was. Such a key player for us.

Downplays himself something chronic in that interview.

When I see his name now I only think of the lack of accountability he demonstrated, and the way he turned on the supporters at the end.

 

Aye.. perhaps unfair to not consider Rodgers CL qualifying record, his wins over Zenit and Anderlecht.. etc.

Just frustrated with those who downplay Lennon's significant achievements due to his last season.. his CL run in his first spell, and topping a EL group, beating Lazio home and away in the second.. can't take it away from him.