Jonny Hayes

Yeah brought McManus in from there bcoz he's Kennedys best mate and then brought Odea and Hammel soon after.
Kriviocapic and Meldrum also came from there previously.
Link would likely be traced back to McCart.

No he's been away a few years now, he was tremendous. Don't get me wrong there are some fantastic coaches in there particular at the younger age groups but most of the ex players are there on name and friendships alone

 

Right this is a mad guessing game here, who’s the boss, who was his favourite player? Who’s the other no people skills one?

Can’t imagine O’Dea being anyone’s favourite player, but he also seems a guy who would have more people skills than Big Mick.
Stevie Hammel? Aye, Motherwell as *. But not an ex player or a Lawwell/Desmond or even a Strachan. He’s a coach we hired, with no links to us. That’s the exact opposite thing.

McCart in they 20 year odd… record transfer, our captain, a guy that’s delivered to be one of the most successful in our history, he works with a guy who was another captain that came through in they 20 years.

And we’ve had a load of players in that time that everyone was complaining whilst we knew they were ready to step up, the first team manager wouldn’t give they guys a chance. It’s a common complaint, and a one with real merit.


Never mind guys good enough in that timeframe that Bayern poached a couple, Liverpool poached another. But Andy Robertson got let go for being a wee guy, which is wrong. But he also says he wouldn’t be anywhere near what he has been without that experience, deeming himself not good enough and deservedly let go. We do need to do better but 20 year timeframe, well success all round for that. 5 year, 10 years now even. Yes trophies but not youth guys, but there’s been players on the fringes we have not developed. At all. Is that McCart or the pressure the manager is under at us, and would go for a trusted pro like Aaron Mooy or Forrest rather than Kelly and Vata?

 

Sorry wasn't wanting to give names away after you had asked people if they could name the others.

Mcluskey is Ohallerans favourite player and he use to just constantly get him to tell him tales about his playing career and sit there lapping it up.

Mcnally is the other.

Hammel worked at Motherwell with McManus. We've brought 2 guys in off recommendation of McManus, odea and Hammel. Again it's given jobs to people based on having pals at the club.

Mcgregor and Forrest are standout yes. Tierney was playing as a right winger about to be binned until Deila stepped in so don't think they deserve much credit for him.

2 players in 20 years isn't a strong strike rate

 

To be fair there would probably be a few more if we could actually keep hold of them, or have a pathway from development to the full squad.

There's more than 2 though, Tierney you mentioned, Welsh, Ralston, who Delia promoted too, Johnston from the current squad, even Vata, Kelly on the fringes.

The Hendersons, Aitchison and a few more made the break through into the first team too, even if they didn't establish themselves.

Personally I think we need to get prospects into the first team squad earlier and actually play them, loan first sure but get them actual game time as early as possible, not just when we decide we need to, to keep them.

Had actually heard McCluskey was a decent coach too, but from a fair while ago when he was coaching out at Castlemilk for us.

 

A

Ahh fair aye, McCluskey I was surprised at. Far as I know he’s a zoomer.

McNally I’ve no clue about. But was surprised seeing them on the list of academy coaches. And there’s a McStay there. Dunno if he’s an actual McStay Paul and Wullie type but not a common name.

Tierney wasn’t even Ronny stepping in, he was the only * left behind and we needed a spare for first team training. And he seen it as his opportunity and never looked back but he was signed under McCart mate can’t pick and choose that sorta stuff when it’s a success.

Actually makes me feel slightly better he worked with Big Mick and brought him in, I assumed nobody did and he was brought in. Darren O’Dea everything I’ve heard and anyone I’ve talked to, and there’s a few guys that didn’t make it and would be understandably bitter with him, I’ve not heard anything but him being talked up.


I don’t want jobs for the boys, but I do like a some guys that know what mentality is needed to succeed here in the mix. Big Mick I love as a player and captain here and would have said is an example of how to be a success here, and making the most of limited ability through sheer mentality.

Don’t think he knows how to pass that lesson on but. O’Dea I’ll back to the hilt, McCluskey can’t see bringing * all. McNally I have no idea about. But the rest of the guys I’ve mentioned I have no clue about either, coaches with no link to us.


Every big time has ex players in amongst it. As long as that’s not the only people, I’m happy they’re there.

On the last point Maloney, McGeady, Big Mick, Forrest, Calmac all massive in that 20 year time frame. Tierney, forgot to mention him in that. Then there’s guys like Ralston in Ange’s first year who was crucial to that double, Welsh played a part.

We need to do more, but it’s not two, and McCart isn’t in the position to force a manager to pick guys like Karamoko over Lewis Morgan, or Frame this year over Bernabei.

 

Think John might be Willie McStays son.

 

20 year period. We’ve had youth products as captain for what, 5 of they years now? Two times youth products in the last 20 years were our record sell in McGeady and then Tierney.

I’m somehow managing to argue a point that I don’t properly agree with here, we’ve done okay with it on paper, but should do better. Need to provide that pathway to the first team. I just don’t blame guys like McCart for that. And I know for the full time I’ve been on here, nearly 20 years, the biggest complaint has been that. The road from youth to first team.


We’ve mentioned Tierney and Deila here. Can anyone remember what it took to get his chance after a superb debut? Injuries, Tyler Blacket and Efe Ambrose playing LB and needing to move back to CB due to injuries. Then Tierney got his chance. And never looked back. Tyler Blackett before him, who Deila loved from day dot, who had already played a blinder, hadn’t put a foot wrong. Blacket got injured, and Efe went there. That is peak us, not just under Ronny, under any manager I can think of except Martin O’Neill, who used they guys to plug the swuad. And it produced Marshall, Maloney, McGeady, Wallace, Crainey… Kennedy. And a few more ai know I’m missing out

 

To be fair I said near 20 years. McCart got job in 2008. Maloney was an Aston villa player, mcgeady had been a 1st team player for 3 years and McManus was celtic captain by then. So no credit to him on any of them.

No idea on Odea but slightly concerning that someone who's been talked up has now been taken away from coaching to do a job he isn't qualified to do.

Guys have came though the academy but I'd say only Mcgregor and Forrest have became 1st team players. Tierney is only one sold at a profit. For a club who's entire business model is buy low, sell high that's not good enough.

Others have moved on and been snapped up bcoz they so no pathway to the 1st team here. Take Vata for example, talented player with host of clubs after him yet we would rather spend millions on absolute dug * like, Tilio, Yang and probably khun.

Appointing a pathway manager is a step in tight direction but as iv already said we gave it to someone with absolutely zero experience in the role and someone who happens to be an ex player and already employed at the club.

Bigger issue is we have a whole host of coaches appointment on name, playing carrer or previous links to current staff. Even Stuart McLaren was due to Ange.

We don't appear to do any proper recruitment process for coaches but I suppose if we don't have it place for players or mangers then why the * would we?

 

2008 being close enough to twenty years puts the * up me tbf

Why do you think he isn’t qualified or able for the role? Qualifications don’t mean much to me, Ange wasn’t a qualified coach with badges when we made him manager for example.


I’m happier guys we’ve worked with for years getting promoted into jobs, because presumably you know if they’re suited and the strengths and weaknesses.

You’re using Vata as an example there, a som of an ex-player, an agent we have as part of the unofficial network of club contacts who played for us, that came in under McCart. Is that not the ultimate example of what you’d rather not?


I don’t think McCart is the reason Vata’s not been played either tbf. It’s out if his remit, there’s no route to get in the first team, and no appetite from any manager I can remember us having. Guys that have forced there way in, there’s always ‘other’ reasons than us bringing youth through.

Lenny was youth manager, new Forrest was a star in the making, got promoted so he got his chance and took it. Calmac was nearly out the door, Ronny came in, we had a threadbare squad so he played him on the wing and he had a goalscoring start there. Wasn’t his position and was just a player that was about to get that chance. Because Berget was *.


Tierney I’ve went over Tyler Blacket and Efe ffs. We have example after example over the years mate. But the fact we have the examples makes me think McCart’s done the providing, but we haven’t made use. We need to do better, 100% I agree. But we need to nail the most simple part of using what we have already, or ramping it up means * all.

 

Forgive me, as this may be long and may go off on a crazy tangent, that is certainly beyond the Hayes discussion.
The entire situation and how we operate at the club, isn't just down to one issue, many issues can be tied together and often the reasoning for one thing means other things happen to be the same. In these cases of jobs for the boys, we don't need to look just at the youth/academy coaches, but can see the same issues at first team coaches, boardroom, recruitment and all over the shop.

Taking though, just the Academy coaches as a subject matter, I think it is a bit more severe than we would like it to be.
Names like Krivokapic and Romero sound nice, if they aren't linked to the club previously in some fashion. But of the 26 coaches listed https://www.celticfc.com/academy/boys-academy/academy-coaches/ many have been previously at the club as youth products, or a long time servant of the club - neither are bad on individual cases, but when what seems to be a common theme of giving jobs to former staff, and not branching out, that can breed neglect and complacency. Some have been in their positions for 10, 12, 16, even over 20 years now - during a time where success seen from the fans perspective (what talent is making the step up) is pretty poor.
We tend to also have an unhealthy link to family members and for some reason at this level, to Motherwell - what that link is I am not sure, perhaps completely coincidental though.

Of the 26, at least 7 have came through our own academy, 3 look to have family ties (name), 5 have ties to Motherwell.
And almost all of them, minus the odd one or two, have been at the club in some capacity for over a decade. Some over two stints or more.

The issue of each individually may be fine and explainable. Even one on their own as having relatively zero experience in youth coaching, isn't a bad thing. All coaches start somewhere and youth tends to be the vast majority of where people begin their coaching careers. However not all youth coaches go up that ladder to first team coach or managers. There are specialised and experienced coaches at youth level, who just want to be youth level coaches.

It seems odd that for us, our setup is built around having a previous link to the club in some fashion.
The Motherwell link, I can only assume came from McCart originally joining us, where he would have been a successful youth coach in an era that Motherwell produced some good young talent. Albeit, a small dig in to his past - he was also at the Celtic Boys Club back in his day, so yeah - he's a fan and a previous link to the club in some form.


Now, this all is fine on the face of it. No one really has an issue at all. But add in things like O'Dea getting a new job title of Pathway manager - with what experience?
Jobs going to Mark Lawwell, Gavin Strachan, Craig Strchan, Gordon even getting a temp role at one stage. Board reshuffle is just the same names in different places.
Even Peter himself leaving as CEO to come back in 18months as chairman - even though he held a title of some form at the club to ensure the ECA position during that time.

It's a constant rotation of pals, former staff and family members at the club, in positions that become a bit too comfortable.

Johnny Hayes, I have no issue with him as himself, but is he just here because he played for us? Signs would suggest highly likely. As opposed to going out and hiring coaches and talent in other departments that actually have real experience of the jobs.

I'll stop here, as I can feel the tangent going off far too much as it is. But we've all seen the film before, we know how the story unfolds.

At this stage, I am preparing myself for when Anthony Ralston and Stephen Welsh replace O'Dea and McManus in 2034. It's inevitable.

 

I think it will be a good appointment, the guy always gave a 100% when with us and has played at a high level so he certainly understands what being a professional footballer is all about.

 

@Peej i agree on a lot there but saying pretty poor success, in the last decade or so - and I know you didn’t mean it like this btw - is wrong.

We have been immensely successful. And the route of not allowing * all to slip to train guys maybe displacing more established better players is part of that. And the guys that thrive under the pressure tend to have a special mentality.


Would you trade off say, 4/5 youth products bedded in the last 5 years for 4/5 trophies?

 

Certainly, don't get me confused with the success on the pitch with the success of the youth talent coming through.

Would I trade 4/5 titles for 4/5 youth talent. If it's a straight up black and white question, of course not.

But it's never that clear and simple.

Of all the game time Yang got this season, if we have Vata that same time - do we think the outcome of our season would have been different?

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Needs more than that though to make a success of the youth setup.

What you describe is why some clubs have former players come back for basically guest spots.
Inspirational days where former class players come in and show how they done it before etc.


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For me that's an admin role, similar to the guy Harkin at city who we looked at for DoF role. I could be wrong and could be doing him a disservice but after career in football I doubt odea is the best at admin side of this of I'm honest.

The fact we, or to be more precise Rodgers has wanted to create this position suggests we have recognised we arnt providing the correct pathway for youths.

I think our academy at younger age groups is good but they appear to hit a brick wall once they get to 17/18. Partly due to no Patchway and partly due to standard of coaches not being as good as it is further down the academy. Far more ex players and pals working at the higher up age groups.

Regardless of Vatas journey, he's a quality player, who is highly rated and had done well at u21s etc. His path to 1st team being blocked by garbage like yang and Tilio is the issue.

Your right in saying a lot is down to managers too, Forrest, Mcgregor and Tierney wouldn't have made it if not for Lennon and Deila and then Rodgers giving them the opportunities at 1st team level.

Whether more would of came through with more opportunities or there havnt been enough deserving of opportunities due to lack of proper development I suppose it's a bit of both.

But it definitely needs looked at and probably upgraded but as a club having people in positions of power for 15 - 20 years, regardless of performance in the role seems to be the norm unfortunately

 

My theory is that if we did it right we'd win more trophies over the longer term and have increased success. Which I actually believe is what most people think.

I'd guess a large part of the reason we don't have a better development/coaching setup is it's hard to build that structure and recruit outside of your immediate circle. We are basically just doing more of the same, repeatedly at present.

Looking back how many coaches have we really had that even get close to not having any connection with the club but being recruited on merit alone. Even Damian Duff and Harry Kewell where recruited via being known to others in the club.

One interesting ex-player that I would have liked to see come back is Maloney as think he's a different breed from what we have here now. Really someone has to set out a vision be given the influence and resources to enable it for anything to even begin change.

 

Indeed but many coaches may not have played at a high level, at least Johnny has and knows the pressure of this, maybe with the correct training his coaching skills will develop, if you don’t give him a chance then we will never know.
Coaches should be paid to deliver and if they don’t then score down their appraisal, that is what happens to mere mortals like us.

 

Meanwhile, Lanarkshire Live Sport understands Jonny Hayes is set to be appointed the assistant manager to Darren O'Dea at the club's B team, meaning he will take on Lanarkshire sides East Kilbride, Albion Rovers and Caledonian Braves in the Lowland League next term.

Hayes hung up his boots at the end of the season at the age of 36 and turned down the chance to stay at Aberdeen to pursue his coaching career at Parkhead

 

Struggling to care much about Hayes when our best academy talent is being poached by other clubs in better leagues.