Has Ken Clarke got a point

I agree with Ken Clarke's statement. A forced, violent rape at knifepoint is nothing like a 16 year old boy and a 15 year old girl having consensual *. I cannot see what they fuss about this is tbh.

 

Jeez...i thought if i put it in black and white it would be interpreted as such.I said during the FUMBLING....did you guys actually read that.....i said the FUMBLING!! Any of you go through the fumbling?.....Not full *!!!! Do you remember being a teenager? I have never forced myself on a woman ffs.
But equally i didnt just say when i was trying to feel her *.......ooooohhh jeez, she said no.....i better stop.What teenager does that????You persist.....until she either says ok...or says NNNNOOOOO... and then you stop. I do actually have self control.Talk about looking to find a reason to jump down on someone!
Specifically to Danni.....i have never forced myself on any woman...I have ignored the word "No" when in a relationship,but not if i thought she was terrified and completely against it....and it is almost impossible anyway unless she is undry....so when that has happened...ie she has said no, its not as if she was really caring and was scarred by the incident.It is only when in a really loving and trusting relationship i am talking about with regard to me......... equally, i am aware that if it was a.... NNNNOOOO... then i wouldnt have carried on.Like i said, there is no and there is NNNOOO.I do know the difference you know.
I can categorically assure you the women in my life have scarred me a lot more than i ever scarred them....and i have never raped anyone....but lying in bed with my woman....when she is sleepy and i am not....and she has said no and i have continued, i can assure you if she EVER gave the impression she was aghast at the idea or tried in any way to make me stop...i would have stopped.Equally, as i have said before...i have awoken to sexual activity that i did not want!

Yes there are examples of women being traumatised by rape in a relationship...but it is a lot less likely to be as traumatic as being raped outwith a date or a relationship...is it not?A stranger...a relative....a friend....
Do not tell me that full rape when least expected is not worse than being raped when in bed with no clothes on and in mid foreplay...and she just changes her mind.Yes she is within her rights...but no-one can tell me it is worse than true rape when * is not n the menu.

 

yes he should still go to jail as he is still a rapist,he's still forceably having * with her against her will so he deserves to be jailed and treated like the scum he is.we all have urges but if you can't stop yourself against them then you are a danger to yourself and others.

the under age thing is another story,its not rape if a guy has * with an under age girl,it may be wrong but it's certainly not rape.that would be an injustice to rape victims to class them the same.then you are posed with the question, at what age does it go from having * with someone underage to paedophilia..... different girls/boys mature and become adults at different ages so its dependent on the case really.and as TAB said it's hardly going to come to the point of asking for ID.

 

Ok the first part of what you wrote, NO means NO. You should stop and then talk to see if she is ok before carrying on regardless. If it is some fumble with a one night stand she might feel pressurised because you are not stopping straight away, she might just give in, she is not screaming and crying, but she is not 100% on board either.

Look into the case of Katie Piper.. tell me if what eventually happened to her was worse than stranger rape? She was locked in a hotel room and systematically raped by her bf for hours.... days later she was then victim to an acid attack. You see the kind of guys who do not take no as an answer in a relationship, can escalate that sort of violence. So your argument is naive and ill thought out.

For example people who mistreat animals, or kill animals in sadistic ways, get lesser sentences than if they were to do the same to humans. However there is a massive link between this and people who then go on to commit violent crimes against humans.

Rape is rape, its traumatising for a woman! You could argue that a boyfriend ignoring a woman's wishes and then raping her, could be more traumatising because her trust has gone.

 

I get your nuance but it's really hard to portray that on a forum. Cos if you say something like i don't always accept no then it almost sounds like you force them. But I get what you mean you should call it convincing them to have *. That is not the same as rape. But rape does not always have to be brute force. It can also be rape when manipulation or blackmailing or a power position is used. Then the woman might seem not to resist it but it's still rape according to the law. So in terms of the law, rape is rape when it's forced upon a person. And then the judge decides how grave that rape is. Anyhow I don't believe you rape your girls mate.

 

lol...of course i * dont!

@rachel...Ok the first part of what you wrote, NO means NO. You should stop and then talk to see if she is ok before carrying on regardless. If it is some fumble with a one night stand she might feel pressurised because you are not stopping straight away, she might just give in, she is not screaming and crying, but she is not 100% on board either.

I think you know what i am saying, but are deliberately trying to pick holes in my points.I HAVE NEVER FORCED MYSELF ON A WOMAN..OK?.My point is that it is a guys job to pester and a womans job to say no.It is part of the ritual when you are young.I didnt just ignore the "no" and put my hand where she didnt want it...but equally i did not give up...(well you do eventually in some cases)..as most young guys do, i would keep TRYING.....(note the word "trying"?).Believe it or not....as i have said, i do know the difference between "no"...and "NNOOOO". No woman in my life has ever been in any danger or FORCED to do something she didnt want to.Got that?

I dont know what your experiences are.....i know of your sexuality, but i suppose you may have some experience of guys when younger....but no is not always no.Yes, sometimes a guy convinces a girl it is ok...that he'll be safe, that they wont get caught, that he'll be gentle..etc etc etc ...that is what we do!!!We try to get the knickers off women!!! NOT BY FORCE, BUT BY TRYING TO REASSURE HER...which is sometimes what a girl wants...reassurance.We do by nature have the capability to distinguish between a woman really saying no, and a woman just needing coaxing.It may not seem "nice" when put into type...but that is the reality of most young couples.Girl plays hard to get...guy chases!

Re-Katie Piper...of course that is terrible, but it is not typical....and in no way has it anything to do with my points.I am not condoning in any way or excusing the guy for being her BF....i agree it is completely wrong and is rape....and kidnapping and everything else.

However...i do notice that no-one has come back to me on MY POINT about a girl in the middle of foreplay, ready for penetration, and at the very last second....she says no!!As i said, if the guy goes ahead....makes a mistake by not believing the no, or thinking it is just a part of the foreplay or whatever, is that the same as the many examples of terror that we could all mention?I think not.Yes technically it is still rape...but you will never convince me there are not differences in the degrees of rape.Yes..i will agree...rape is rape....but as i pointed out earlier...stealing is stealing...murder is murder...i could go on.By saying rape is rape...you are giving the impression that the sentencing should be standardised.Well i do not think it should ever be so.Each case is completely different and should be treated as such.So yes, rape is rape....but they are all different.
PS...re the girl in foreplay.....that has not happened to me...just incase you guys try to imply i am talking from experience.

(do you ever regret making an initial post???)

 

*cough*

 

So that guy should get the same sentence as a rapist preying on women at night with the threat of violence???Is that you are saying?Its just the same??
Yes or no?

 

yes,he obviously has issues controlling his sexual urges..........

he could always just ask for a handjob :icon_mrgreen:

 

Ok...at least you took the sting out it..I will give up this argument but i will say again that i personally think that there are varying types of rape and they are NOT all the same.....but i accept others feel differently.

 

we'll settle at guys who go out to commit rape should be shot and ones who fall into the category your saying should just have their * cut off(since they can't control themselves)

 

Well as Basil Fawlty said when Sybil implied she would cut his balls off,..."you'll have to sew them back on first"! Believe me mate....im in the Basil camp when it comes to women.Footprints all over my back!