For or Against

IRELAND: Civilians the main targets

BELFAST — In what is being hailed as "the most comprehensive study to date" of Troubles-related deaths, an April 1999 University of Ulster study confirms what has long been hidden by British propaganda and complicit media: pro-British forces have been responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths in the six counties during "the Troubles".
Data in the new study also confirm the fact that the Irish Republican Army was waging war against the British state forces, while the British and their supporters waged a war of terror against the Irish civilian population.
The study, "Northern Ireland's Troubles: The Human Costs", shatters carefully cultivated British mythology of the "British army as protector" of nationalist communities. Data prove clearly that pro-British combatants in the six counties more often than not kill unarmed civilians, not armed combatants.
Pro-British forces, according to the data section, "Mapping Troubles-Related Deaths", have killed nearly 10 times as many unarmed civilians as they have killed members of republican military forces.
For the past 30 years, the British "securocrats" have managed media coverage of the Troubles to leave an impression of mindless republican violence against Irish society. The University of Ulster study blows holes right through the British propaganda spin. Of nearly 3600 deaths related to the Troubles, more than half — 1921 — have been unarmed civilians. Of those unarmed civilian deaths — the vast majority of them Irish nationalists — pro-British forces are responsible for 1066 (56%).
Catholics comprised more than 88% of those killed by state-paid forces (the British army, Royal Ulster Constabulary — RUC and the Ulster Defence Regiment — UDR) whose religious affiliations were discernible. Seventy-five per cent of all those killed by loyalists (983) were Catholics, and 87% of loyalist murders were of unarmed civilians. And although the pro-British forces have killed 1066 Irish civilians, they have killed only 161 republican military force members.
The data also show that republican military forces have claimed responsibility for the deaths of 1070 members of the British military and the militarised RUC.
Among other data damning to British propagandists, the study finds that:

• The RUC has killed nearly twice as many unarmed civilians as they have killed republican military force members, and these figures do not even include RUC shoot-to-kill murders which are officially denied by the British government. More than 80% of the murder victims acknowledged by the RUC have been Catholic.

• Loyalists have murdered 33 times as many unarmed civilians — nearly 860 unarmed civilians, nearly all of them Catholic — as they have killed members of republican military forces, clear evidence that the occupation forces have been unable or unwilling to protect the nationalist communities from Unionist and loyalist violence. These figures do not include the 1997-98 "random" sectarian killing spree that loyalists engaged in at the height of the peace talks.

• The British army has killed 11 times as many republican military-force members as it has killed loyalist paramilitary members.

• The British army, since 1969, has killed more unarmed Irish civilians (168) than republican military force members (117).

• The UDR (now renamed the Royal Irish Regiment), of which UUP (Ulster Unionist Party) leader Ken Maginess was a member, killed 11 persons — nine of them unarmed civilians.

The death-exchange between warring republicans and loyalist paramilitaries is nearly even: republican military forces have claimed the lives of 31 loyalists, loyalists have killed 26 republican military force members.
The data do not include 14 sectarian "random" loyalist attacks on nationalist civilians between January 1997 and January 1998, two loyalist murders of civilians in April 1998, the loyalist incineration of the three little Quinn brothers, the murder of Brian Service, nor the loyalist-claimed assassination of Rosemary Nelson.

 

You dont have to support the pira, my point is no one makes a fuss when english fans of their clubs wear poppies to respect their war dead yet when some nasty tim sings songs of hate such as roll of honour everyone seems to be outraged.

 

Would also like to Add Derry and Croke park * Sunday massacres

 

I stated I have a problem with a terrorist organisation. The purpose for this thread was to sort out what people's opinions on how we should go forward I gave my opinion...

 

Don't see why people want to embarrass the club by singing these songs when millions of people can hear/watch worldwide. We are a club that welcomes all, so singing political songs is highly contradictory.

 

Your right and we're being hard done by I agree with you... but we live in a british country mate and most media politicians and police will side with british views... It's not right but it's the way it is...

 

But your opinion is offensive to huge part of the Celtic support.

 

HUGE PART

Don't flatter yourself.

People who are offended by my comment can stuff their offended eyes up their *...

 

What's your point?

 

And ira song are offensive to the other half of celtic fans...and none celtic fans....and other fans in scotland.
Now you see the problem...?

 

so the non irish supporters of our club who watch the team for football reasons not political have to be subjected to listening to this bile week in week out wether we like it or not?

 

This is why we get no where with this * club both half of the fans saying.....* you or tough * i aint giving it up.
We have to find a middle ground or else.

 

Not sure but have to say 1 or 2. Leave out anything with the PIRA, Celtic football club has nothing to do with terrorists and murderers..
Songs of the old IRA freedom fighters should never be banned though. These songs should never be forgotten but for a foreigner like me they seem out of place on a football arena. But Celtic is a unique club

 

Bottom line.

The continuation of singing pro-IRA songs is damaging the club on domestic and European fronts.

That leaves us with 2 groups of people.

People who want to support the IRA and people who want to support Celtic.

I find it very hard to believe that Celtic fans as passionate as we are can't create an unrivalled atmosphere singing Celtic songs. The GB and others have come up with some cracking songs over the past few years that make no reference to the IRA.

The Celtic Symphony can still be sung, just sing the version played over the PA, it doesn't make the ballad any less rousing.

And before anyone asks i am not anti-ira, anti-irish or anti-gb or anti-anything else.

What i am is pro-Celtic

 

Don't think there is any middle ground in this particular debate mate.

 

Well we can pay fines or shut our gates for european games and sing away.

 

Good post

The problem is if you let one set of currently legal songs become criminalized then what next? Jim Traynor let slip on bbc last night about "leaving behind ALL this Irishness" do people think theyll stop at a couple naughty rebel songs? this is all out war on celtic supporters because many people just can't get their head around the FACT that we are not two sides of the mythical 'sectarian' coin.

 

Irish Republicanism and supporting Celtic are not mutually exclusive though. In fact they've been intrinsically linked since day 1.

 

It would be very well and good if people agreed never to sing PIRA songs or chants again but this will be difficult as the rebels without a cause would latch on to this as you've seen in these threads.

The end will come when uefa and celtic decide if they have a problem with IRA songs wether that be BOTB etc.... If they decide IRA songs are not accepted at football games that leaves us with a big problem....

 

Well every citizen walked the streets in absolute fear of terrorist bombs from the IRA. Schools, Hospitals, Shopping Centres and High Streets did not feel safe. I lived in Stafford for many years as a kid and we had to be walked to school which was less than half a mile from the house in a massive group by parents, the local Hospital was targeted also on numerous occasions and i can count at least 5 times where the local high street having to be evacuated and for you to say that they never targeted civilians is a absolute joke, take off the rose tinted glasses the IRA were a terrorist organization which blatantly used civilian targets as a way to install fear on the populous.

It seems many can only see the fight and cause of the IRA you have no idea about the rest of the * we had to put up with, half of the peoples views are completely laughable and an absolute joke, many i have suspicions of living in Scotland never realy seeing the devastation and fear people had to live in by your glorious organisation