Flares and their continued use

1) I think it's pretty clear that we disagree on whether the fact that UEFA have fined us is relevant to whether we should stop using flares. That was the point I was trying to make. IMO we should not bow to UEFA pressure when their rules are unjust and that is why, for me, the issue is the rights and wrongs of the situation and not what UEFA think. I know you disagree with me here (and to be clear I am not arguing that their decision to ban flares is unjust).

2) I wasn't my intention to compare UEFA's rules to any constitutional debate, though you can read between the lines and see that I would indeed like to do that (for me they are charged with administrating our game, rather than somehow being its owners), nevertheless that isn't the point I was making. There have always been (and hopefully always will be) informal democratic processes in our support. I mean, we didn't ballot the support after the Mark Walters thing on whether racism was acceptable at Celtic, yet the support as a whole, from what I have read, came to a collective decision long before it became fashionable.

Also, I don't necessarily believe the person concerned was not a moron, I was just saying that the mere act of lighting a flare is not enough to dismiss someone as a moron. You may be right and he may be a moron; but in my experience it is usually more productive to try and understand people's motivation than to just dismiss them as idiots because their views and decisions differ from what you personally consider to be obvious or common sense.

3) You're just putting words in my mouth there. I never implied any such thing. Celtic fans have to decide on our position IMO. That doesn't mean I think UEFA will just allow us to do what we want, nor does it mean I think we would be able to act alone without support from fans of other clubs. Only someone very naïve would believe either of those things. TBH, mate, I think you've been a bit unfair there. Either you knew fine well that wasn't what I was saying and were attacking a straw man, or you really did think that was what I was implying, which would show a real lack of respect for me. Either way it feels very unfair.

4) It would be interesting to know what the legal situation is there. In what sense is it "their" tournament? What specific rights is it that UEFA own? Obviously they will own the marketing rights etc, but could some of the rights they claim (such as the right to impose certain limitations on the behaviour of fans) be challenged in a court? Again complex issues and not simple at all.

5) I think there's more at stake than you think here. Most of the arguments you are using have disturbing implications far beyond the use of flares and that is what worries me about them.

 

Celtic will not appeal against the £12,700 Uefa fine for "illicit chanting" by some of their fans in the home Europa League game against Rennes.
Uefa's control and disciplinary body announced its decision on Monday.
Celtic chief executive Peter Lawwell said: "The heavy fine imposed by Uefa is an indication of the seriousness with which it treats such matters.
"We reiterate our position that, however small the minority, such chanting is not welcome at Celtic."
The fine was in reaction to a report by the Strathclyde Police match commander to the Uefa delegate of instances of some fans "singing offensive songs" during the 3 November fixture.
"Clearly, it is very disappointing and a source of real regret amongst our supporters that Celtic's proud history of exemplary conduct has been tarnished in this way by such a tiny minority," Lawwell said.
"However, this is a clear warning that such behaviour will not be tolerated and, together, Celtic Football Club and our supporters will do all we can to ensure that this incident is not repeat

This is the fight we and our club should have been concerned about yet we just took the fine

 

Flares were great in the 70's but a bit outdated now! Skinny jeans are the way to go!

 

I pretty much agree with this.

 

Stop the flares at Celtic matches, support the team and club. How simple does it have to be ?

 

The club will never do that either unfortunately

 

Why should the Celtic fans decide? They are banned for, primarily, health reasons, which means they are not targeting one specific club.
More importantly they are not targeting our club.

I'd say it already has been. If the majority supported the use of flares at games then more and more people would be attempting to use them as a form of social protest. I'd also point out it's easy to say we should decide when it's not our money paying the fines. I'm sure than many board members are happy to pay out if they feel a statement i worth making, but why should they keep paying out for something as stupid and clear as this?

They do not give a crap about the club or the fans, or at least any clubs outside the existing elite. Anyone who doesn't understand this has clearly not been watching modern day football. The only way to change this is for a mass walkout by fans across the globe, but that will never happen and therefore UEFA will continue dong whatever they can get away with.

Also, as stated, whilst many of their rules are awful, in my opinion (and a large majorities) this one is not.

 

Surprised and stunned at that, given your previous posts, especially UEFA/Celtic but heyho saves me replying to your latest post.

 

You my well be correct and the worst thing that will happen is the Club continue to get fines and nothing else , although the fines would likely get bigger.
The only other thing I would say is when ever I get a parking ticket I don't let/expect others pay the fine ..

 

Why are you always so permanently raging * going for a few pints with you.

 

Where is the rage exactly?

Surely you don't mean a few wee sweary words? If so, maybe you need to get out more and stop concerning yourself with whether I'm raging or not.

 

Rage? Sean is the forums equivalent of Gandhi and Martin Luther King all rolled up into one loveable Celtic strip wearing embodiment of tranquillity :smiley-laughing002:

 

It's like the steamie in here all of a sudden, * sweetie wives everywhere. :smiley-laughing002:

 

To be fair though, you have been known to lose the rag now & then. You're the forums equivalent of Ross from Friends when someone eats his sandwich at work :icon_mrgreen:

 

Viva Sean Daleer

 

Go then. Go find a post of me losing the rag.

I'm getting * sick of this accusation to be honest.

 

Infact, make it fair. Find ten. :icon_mrgreen:

That will prove a pattern of sorts.

 

Silly Sean don't you know you have to put a smiley face at the end of your post in order not to sound like a raging * :icon_mrgreen::icon_mrgreen::icon_mrgreen:

 

Found one.

 

:smiley-laughing002:

If that's rage then I don't think you are ready for big girl pants just yet.