Controversial Celtic opinions

Good point here. Suppose there's no exact line as such, I'd vaguely describe it as if it tells a story of legitimate struggle then it's worthwhile bringing attention to it. Whereas if it's just revelling in hatred or shouting slogans for the sake of it then do it amongst people that actively want to participate.

 

I once thought about very simplistically, and figured if it pre-dated The Troubles, it's acceptable, and vice-versa. But it didn't work that way

 

Can kind of get behind the sentiment, although as Random and Marty say how you draw a line most importantly who draws it makes it probably unobtainable tbh. Sadly on this site their are too many * wits without the mental capacity to even want to try and understand different folks pov that go out of the way to show themselves up as bigots by going on about "terrorists" etc and go out of their way to be offensive and edgy that just don't have a clue what they are talking about if you try and dig any deeper.

 

Haha I know exactly what you mean, been there myself But as you know it's SO much more complicated than that.

*, I've even been subject to criticism airing certain songs in the company of a room full of 100% republicans, all of whom have varying opinions on what's acceptable or not. 'Shinners' and 'Dissies' adamant the other 'side' should be dismissed out of hand.

It's a * mad circumstance tbh, but when you come to terms with the idea that it's a football match, and a club with a support base of varying political opinions, it gets a bit easier to judge what is and isn't relevant in the stadium.

 

As with most things online, the majority will just 'pick a side' and run with it. There are folk who will comment on 'the IRA' as if it's just a single entity, not having the faintest idea that there have been so many different iterations and 'spin-offs' over the last century plus.

This is exactly why I LOVE songs that actually provide a bit of insight and nuance, songs that make you actually use your brain and think about what the words mean.

 

Aye. I would much rather have these discussions with folk of a different view in the pub every day of the week. I like both songs however I think "Death Before Revenge" is a more nuanced song than Rifles of The IRA. However if we go with a lot of the Old IRA good, Provos bad then we can sing the song about the violence of the 1920's IRA, however not the one about the brutal occupation and suffering of the Nationalist community in the 1980's.

 

Fantastic post this, and these two songs you mention are the most perfect examples you could have chose mate. Amazing songs both of them, every time I hear Death Before Revenge at CP I crack a smile.

It's good to see someone actually talk about this in a logical way, it's a subject that usually ends up in a pure rammy. Like it alluded to earlier, it's not about what era of the struggle is right or wrong, for me it's all about singing about Ireland in the context of Celtic’s roots and also being mindful of us being a football club, not a vehicle for mindless slogans being belted out with zero thought behind them.

 

For what it's worth I think your view is spot on. And while I disagree with @StPauli1916 on the subject I do respect the argument he makes and the nuance in his point. And like both of you I really like a lot of these songs.

To me, the appropriateness of songs and flags is all about context. And to me, there is a clear distinction between how people may enjoy these tradition songs of freedom/ battle songs/nationalistic songs, and how they are typically used by football fans or political groups. To take examples where most on here would probably agree...

English fans singing 10 German Bombers, are clearly not doing it to celebrate the bravery and the selfless dedication of the RAF pilots who protected Britain against fascism. And any sensible minded RAF vetern would hate it as much as anyone else. In the same way singing Rule Britannia at the Proms clearly means something different to the BNP singing the exact same words marching down a Muslim area of an English town, or rangers fans singing it before chanting about * blood.

To me sticking a balaclava on, driving down to Birmingham to sing songs about 'the IRA' and winding up a guy about his gran being dead, has nothing to do with being proud to be Irish or the Irish rebellion of 1916. It has nothing to do with opposing the idea of a monarchy. And even if that is overly harsh and actually said person was completely oblivious to the context in which he was singing songs, after pointing out that people in the home end may have had friends or relatives killed by 'the IRA', that should really be enough convince him just to give it a rest for the night. Rather than argue that actually he was only singing about a particular period of time or a particular version of the army. It just feels like such a disengenous argument to me.

 

I don't speak for anyone that went to down to Birmingham in a balaclava( I have never taken one to the football) however I very much doubt they would claim they were only singing about the old IRA. If we accept that we are coming at this from opposite ends of the spectrum I am pretty confident that the people that want to make this disengenous argument would come from closer to your end of the spectrum than mine. Look back to the posts in the Villa thread from last weekend and it is there in black and white. I was highlighting the silliness of it.

 

I haven't commented on the forum for a long time, because I got the view that unless you got a hard line view of republicanism you are not welcome, I know what the hassle Irish people have concerning loyalism and I can understand republican songs, people are giving their views that is okay, once again that I understand, but can you imagine if we say my team I support which is Aston Villa turning up in Belfast or Derry singing about the Parachute Regiment, myself I know what was coming on Wednesday, but If Celtic fans don't like the songs Rangers singing surely they don't expect a English fans to hear the same from Celtic,I am on a certain Villa forum and explained sectarian in Scotland and it effects concerning being a Catholic of Irish decency, please take this with the greatest respect as you will find that there is a lot of Villa supporters with Irish heritage,I have now left one particular Villa site because the word * * being used, especially by someone I have known through work many years ago,I class myself as English because that's where I was born

 

Sacked off Spotify in favour of YouTube subscription a while ago, kinda wish I hadn't now.

 

I agree with the thrust of your post but I really don't think this is the case at all. So post away!

A few days before the villa game I posted a genuine question asking why so many people were getting weird about it online. There was clearly elements on both sides revelling at the thought of doing their edgy political shtick. It's all just clowning around to me so I say this without bias, but there were enough villa voices that seemed absolutely desperate for celtic fans to start IRA songs so they in turn could start their nasty */pope little Englander stuff. In turn you had some celtic fans revelling in the thought of getting so much attention meanwhile complaining that the media are giving them negative press. It's just a bit of a silly circus to me and absolutely zero to do with real life actual political thought.

 

Not true at all.

 

Controversial with some people but

peter lawwell is one of the most important and successful people to ever work at / with celtic during the time he has been with celtic they have won more trophies than at any point in the history of the club while having to go through the 08 financial collapse the death of the h*ns and a covid lockdowns while improving and building the clubs infrastructure and training facilities

 

He's a big *, but his overall input to the club has been nothing short of successful - despite opinions.

 

The constant complaining about the GB is getting ridiculous and strikes of people who would prefer our club to not stand for anything and perhaps forget our history? If you want a stale atmosphere, a stadium with no noise and a club that doesn’t stand for anything (even if you have a different viewpoint to them on some things), consider supporting a club in England where all that is true.


People go on about GB and pyro- it’s at every club in Europe (except the stale clubs in England- see my point above) where is all the outrage about other Scottish Clubs that have had “issues” with pryo- Dundee, Motherwell, Aberdeen, Falkirk, Dunfermline to name a few.


UEFA, SFA, Police and the club need to find a way of working with fans groups across Europe to find a way that people can be happy with as it’s not going anywhere.


Maybe I’m in a minority- but I love seeing it games and think it brings a lot to the games (but let’s not forget the GB and Bhoys haven’t had any at European Games since the warning- Villa wasn’t one of them). It is always within their own fans group so the risks being talked about for fans wider is significantly overstated.


Let’s just accept we all have different view points and stop demonising the GB, Bhoys or any other of our fans. #aclubopentoall

 

One last thought on glamourising terrorism, practising religious bigotry and unacceptably bad taste chants or songs - practised by a thankfully reducing number of Celtic supporters.

Many recognise it for what is, but some on here try to explain it all away as Irish folk music, supporting oppressed minorities, banter, history or 'they are even worse'
And some of it is exactly that, and totally acceptable
but some of it simply isn't - and those who do practice it, also know it.

You know your actions and words continue to embarrass both our great club and your fellow Celtic supporters.
Please just stop it.

 

One last thought from me would be this is a typical mish mash of just hitting out at different stuff you personally don't agree with( or more fundamentally just don't have the mental capacity to understand). Hoping to hit something while showing absolutely no willingness or capability to understand different points of views or the diversity of Celtic fans.

You just sound like a bigot to me.

 

I think as an objective fact he is one of the most successful senior people in the history of celtic. No question.

Not sure if he is all that important. The financial duopoly that has gotten wider and wider over the course of the 21st century in Scotland was really a macro event. Champions league money has skewed finances so much that, besides Rangers , Celtic could buy every player in Scotland if they chose to and stick them on one big bench. That's a macro trend evident across lots of league.

Rangers being liquidated made that duopoly a monopoly. Turned a 2 horse set up into a 1 horse set up. I don't think the domestic position celtic finds itself in today is in any way comparable to pre- big money decades. And while Lawwell has played a role in looking after the balance sheet, arguably he's missed a whole lot of opportunity to grow the brand to a much bigger level.