Celtic Supporters Thread (contains GB chat)

Apologies if this is already being discussed elsewhere or in another thread (I can't find it if is). I feel this thread is as appropriate as any, considering the treatment of the Green Brigade and wider Celtic support recently. But here is the latest statment from the FAC:

New Offensive Behaviour Statistics released today - embarrassing flop for the Government


The Crown Office under the Lord Advocate Frank Mulholland and the Scottish Government represented by Roseanna Cunningham have released the statistics for the first full year of the operation of the Offensive Behaviour at Football: Threatening Communication Act 2012 tomorrow (Friday 14 June 2013). For some weeks now they have been making robust claims that these statistics will show that the Act is working.


We are currently producing a detailed analysis of the statistics which are far from impressive in supporting the case for the continuation of this piece of legislation. However, we can say already that all that has effectively happened is that there is a fall in those convicted under the Religiously Aggravated Offences (Section 74) and an almost equal rise in those convicted under the Offensive Behaviour Act. Not much return on the £1.8 million pounds allocated to the Football Coordination Unit Scotland who police this Act.<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o></o>


In addition to this, what the statistics will never tell us, but which we as football supporters are only too aware of, is the following:<o></o>

• The number of young people with no previous criminal record or activity who have come into contact with the police as a result of this Act
• The smaller number of young people who have endured 3 or more trips to courts in all parts of Scotland only to have the charges dropped by the Crown or to be found Not Guilty
• The number of young people who have had their details taken unlawfully by the police
• The number of football fans of all ages who have to run the gauntlet of police officers in order to attend football matches which are entirely devoid of any crowd trouble and have been for decades.
• The number of football fans of all ages who are photographed, videoed, monitored and intimidated by the Football Co-ordination Unit Scotland, the recipient of£1.8 million of government funding, all spent on harassing private citizens because they happen to be football fans.

< !--[if !supportLists]-->
This is the human cost of the Offensive Behaviour Act however, a press conference will be held in Glasgow next week in which we will give a detailed analysis of the figures produced by the government as well as the stories behind the statistics, which illustrate how this Act has produced a style of policing about which all citizens should be concerned.<o></o>


Leading lawyer Paul Kavanagh, of Gildeas Ltd said today:<o></o>


There is an old saying lies, * lies and then statistics.

While every right minded individual would agree that there is no place in Scotland for bigotry of any kind whether by race, colour or religion the success of the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communication 2012 introduced by the current administration raise interesting questions.

87 convictions, how many arrested? How many proceeded to trial? How many pled guilty without legal representation or advice? How many with no previous experience of the judicial system? What has been the cost of implementing the act, policing it etc?

How do we measure success? Do we measure it with regard the number of convictions? Do we measure it with regard the huge number of young football fans forced by police unlawfully to give them their personal details? Do we measure it by the decreasing number of football fans attending games or do we eventually measure it by taking a poll of young football fans and their voting intentions at next year’s referendum and whether they will vote for independence?

 

Ponsonby's triumph and Mulholland's shame


Yesterday was in interesting news day. We had the publication of the statistics for charges/convictions under the Offensive Behaviour Act and on Religiously Aggravated Crimes in Scotland for 2012-13. STV news gave the issue a 2nd top billing on the 6pm news, the justification for which, when the interview with the Lord Advocate came on, became immediately apparent.

By now most people will know that, Bernard Ponsonby the veteran Scottish newsman put the following question to the Lord Advocate, Frank Mulholland:

BP: 'So-called political chanting falls foul of this law?'
Lord Advocate: 'Of course it does yes, as I understand it'.

Ponsonby follows this up by asking about 'Irish Republican Identity' and asks:

BP 'An Irish Republican identity is potentially criminal under the Act?'
Lord Advocate:'Potentially criminal under this Act, yes'

This comment is extremely important and congratulations to Bernard Ponsonby for asking the question when other, lesser, journalists would not. It is not that this was an utterly mad comment from Frank Mulholland that he must feel like a complete clown for saying - although it was and he must. Neither is it that you could actually be arrested for having 'an Irish Republican identity' whatever that might mean, because quite clearly you could not be arrested, or charged or convicted for having any kind of ethnic or political identity.

The really important thing about it, whether or not any Scottish citizen, journalist or political commentator chooses to acknowledge it, is that it is an open admission (probably of an extremely common albeit almost subconscious mind-set) that there is something dangerous or wrong or potentially criminal to be Irish in Scotland or to believe in a united Ireland.

If you were to replace the word 'Irish' with any other nationality, the question would have been treated with a bemused look I would suggest. If you were to change the word 'republican' with a description of any other political position, then a similar response would have been forthcoming. It is only those two words - that ethnic identity and that political position - which almost without thinking, elicits concern, suspicion and negativity from many Scots; certainly from the police and from many part of government and other institutions.

This brings us back to the Act. This Act, very clearly, was never about sectarianism; because, quite rightly, we already had laws to cover that and to cover other forms of bigotry and racism. This was, and still is, about trying to extend the term bigot or hate crime to the expression by Celtic fans of republican views or (except in a very sanitised, commercially-exploitable way) their Irish identity, should they as individuals, or as a group choose to do so.

For that reason it has not worked, because much as they would love to be able to do so, the government simply, in a modern, European country, cannot criminalise ethnicity or political ideology.

So all that has happened, and their own statistics show this, is that those people who could have been convicted under the Section 74 offences (justifiably), have instead been convicted under the new Act. Indeed, the Celtic Trust was told by McAllister of the FoCuS group that the police were instructed by the Crown Office to use the new Act, so that is what they have done.

However, despite their best efforts to get Celtic fans convicted of singing Irish republican songs, the Sheriffs have, to their credit, refused to do it. Not satisfied with this, the Crown Office under Mr Mulholland (with Alex Salmond working him from the back like a ventriloquist) is appealing two of these Not Guilty verdicts. You may be interested to know that appeals are very, very expensive processes and that the Crown Office usually appeals one or two cases a year and usually in case of very serious crimes such as murder or rape. Yet they have two appeals under way right now because the Sheriffs had the temerity not to convict young boys for singing the Roll of Honour.

So, well done Bernard Ponsonby but shame on you Frank Mulholland. You are a disgrace to your office and if you are remembered at all, it will be as the most craven Lord Advocate ever to have held the post.

 

The above just goes to show even further how ridiculous this new Bill is.

All that money & time spent on putting the Bill into action and taking the cases to court and for what? Fans merely showing support for their team. I could understand if the fans convicted were rioting, fighting in the streets/grounds, or causing other trouble of some sort, but we all know that the convictions will have been for nothing offences.

Absolute joke and it's an embarrassment that the Bill was even considered in the first place.

 

I think it's frightening that such a Bill can get passed in a supposedly tolerant, liberal democracy. It really is disgusting in my opinion.

 

What's even more frightening is the main reason the Bill was pushed through in the first place...a certain football match labelled by the gutter press as the "shame game" from March 2011. I'm sure there have been much worse matches than that one in the past yet the Scottish government did * all after any of those matches. It's ridiculous why the government needed to use a football match as a scapegoat to push the Bill through as well.

Also the Bill isn't even specific. The main reason for it is to tackle sectarianism & bigotry but it's actually targeting anyone and everyone, from someone "aggressively" waving a flag to someone shouting something "offensive". The Bill is completely open to interpretation by the police & stewards and allows them to target anyone that they think is doing something "offensive".

If this Bill is supposed to tackle sectarianism & bigotry then why was * all done after the Berwick Rangers v Sevco match back in February? There was plenty of sectarian singing from their fans, it was heard clearly on TV, ESPN apologised for it and even Ray Stubbs commented about it at half time, yet what happened? Other than two or three arrests, nothing. No fine for the club; no punishment; no condemnation from the Scottish government (just the way they did after the "shame game") or anyone else.

Now, compare that to this...

http://www.ultras-tifo.net/photo-news/1457-police-brutally-stopped-celtic-fans-protest-march.html

...and it proves even further that this Bill is just a joke.

 

John Mason SNP MSP for Shettleston, praises anti-football Act in a motion in parliament today as being a massive success.

 

With a name like that not exactly a shocker.

 

Spot on with your comments Made in Ireland. Nothing to add really but

 

This is going to sound daft but the same law didn't apply because Berwick is in England. The rangers fans knew this, that's why there was extra bigotry at that game. They couldn't be convicted under that law because it was policed by the Northumberland police force and being in England the same law didn't apply

 

They could have still been heavily fined by the sfa sfl or whoever for singing those songs.

 

I thought the law applied to all Scottish residents even when travelling abroad to watch football.

 

I am sure I read that somewhere as well as "scottish monitors" (polis) would travel and be able to "log" the offending item/s ? Or something along those lines

 

It can apply anywhere if the match is a regulated football match involving a Scottish club.

Same goes with internet communications abroad too.

 

You're right.

The article by Paul McConville is very useful, if people feel the actual legislation is a bit too heavy or difficult to read:

'The Act covers regulated football matches, namely any match played by a Scottish senior football team or national team, whether in Scotland or elsewhere. It covers travel to and from a game, including overnight travel.
It covers pubs and other public places where matches are shown on TV, but not private houses.
It covers travel to and from such pubs.
It covers travel to and from matches, even where the accused had no intention of going to the match!' http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.c...-new-offensive-behaviour-etc-act-is-in-force/

Indeed, this was the FoCus Unit in Barcelona, working hard.



http://talfanzine.info/blog/2013/02/22/meet-the-strathclyde-police-focus-team/

 

'Televised matches' involving Scottish clubs are also included, even abroad are in the act.

 

On another note - today another sheriff in Dundee said the act is unworkable and unreadable, along with questioning the credibility of the Focus team.

 

Today: A CELTIC fan who was acquitted of breaching controversial anti-bigotry legislation is to face prosecution again after a ruling by appeal judges.

 

Even if that was the case (which it isn't as pointed out by Tifosi Celtic), and as Mrs Brown's Bhoys said, they should still have been punished by the SFA. They are in the Scottish leagues and knowing that this stupid Bill is in place the SFA should have done something about it, but they didn't even condemn it.

Then again, this is the SFA we're on about. They never administered punishment to the dead club when they were alive for all their bigotry so I suppose why would they start now by punishing this new team?

So this Sheriff in Dundee says "the act is unworkable and unreadable" yet that moronic John Mason SNP MSP "praises" it's "success" (and I'd love to know in what instances it's been a success) Just goes to show what a farce it is when a member of the party who created the Bill "praises" it and an actual Sheriff criticises it.

*' joke!

 

Hocus FoCUS Strike Again

My name is Chris and I’m a Celtic fan in public service in my mid twenties. I have no criminal record and my only experience of dealing with the Police is at football matches when cameras are routinely put in my face simply because I want to watch and support my team.
I was arrested in January as I came through passport control at Glasgow Airport. Cuffed and dragged out by four police officers in front of several hundred travellers and my crying girlfriend. My supposed crime was that I allegedly held up a satirical banner shown at a pre season friendly match between Celtic and English premiership side Norwich. I still to this day don’t know if I did or not as no evidence was ever shown to me. I do however know that the charge was absolutely ludicrous and the Procurator Fiscal obviously agreed as this case was dropped before I was required to appear at court.
I am involved in the campaign against criminalisation and a couple of fan groups at Celtic. It seems that I was singled out for this treatment because of that. I asked one of the Police officers why they choose to arrest me so publically in the airport, embarrassing my family. I was told it was because I had recently moved address and they didn’t know where I now lived. The officer didn’t respond when I said they knew where I stood at matches and no doubt where I drank and how I got to the games.
I was then taken to Govan Police station where I was eventually un-cuffed. In the three hours I sat in the police cell all I could think about was my arrest at the airport and how it was nothing more than harassment and an attempt to humiliate me. I was charged under the Offensive behaviour at football act and released from custody late at night with a court date set for February.
I never had to go to court as my case was dropped within weeks. In that respect I was much more fortunate than many of my fellow fans who have to attend court on multiple occasions and have cases and bans from matches hanging over them for months and beyond. However even in those few weeks it’s difficult not to think of the impact a court case and a possible conviction might have on your life. I work with vulnerable adults and a conviction for football related offenses in the current climate would see me lose my job and I would struggle to find another to provide for my family.
With football fans being demonised by the SNP Government particularly when they falsely claim the act is about anti sectarianism and tackling bigotry clearly having a court case hanging over me could seriously harm my career. From the recent statistics which showed only * crimes have more conviction rates have lower conviction rates it’s clear that a lot of fans will go through the hassle of going to court, only to be found not guilty. It’s also clear that many of the conviction rates are based on guilty pleas as people like me want to avoid their employers finding out or the hassle and expense of defending yourself against charges under the act.
Almost all fans like myself would not be near a police station or a court room if FoCUS wasn’t in their faces at football matches and football fans had not been criminalised by the SNP.
Chris
Chris’s statement was transcribed from an audio recording I made at the FAC press conference. It is a correct representation to the best of my knowledge.

http://thecelticnetwork.com/2013/06/27/fac-chriss-story-humiliated-at-the-airport-hocus-focus/

 

Absolutely disgusting.
I think all fans should en masse wear a Groucho mask as a silent protest!