Celtic in IRA songs row

right on ...

I know it's off topic but slaughtering civillains at the ratio of 8:1 and then claiming you are the victim of terrorism is wrong...

 

What a * up thread

 

Overkill if you are going to answer my post I would be greatful if you would include the whole post and not pick bits out so as to suit your own opinion and agenda. I was answering someone elses point and the validity of the reponse may have been lost as you chose to cut it up.
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Quote = (Zmcfczm) right on ...

I know it's off topic but slaughtering civillains at the ratio of 8:1 and then claiming you are the victim of terrorism is wrong...<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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This is most definatly of topic and is not a discussion for this forum.However the killing of any inocent person is both imoral and repugnent.

When a nation is under constant attack from all sides of its borders since its existance in 1947. It is well within its rights to defend itself. It is not this nations fault if a lesser armed individual or group wants to pick a fight and threaten the saftey of inocent civillians. And then hide itself behind its own inocence. These people shouldnt pick a fight in the first place. Especialy against a bigger and more powerful oponent. Of course casualties will be high on the palastinean side as they hide in densley populated areas if they cared about there own people they would not use them as human shields.

Israel is a democratic and peacful nation who occupies a stretch of land 2miles wide and 80 miles long not exactly a massive peace of real estate. And they have the right to defend it.

If people on other sides of the divide truly want peace they would embrace one another and commit themselves to an equality amongst religions and not call for the DESTRUCTION of a country. And therfore they would benefit in building a viable state of wich most democratic nations and I include Israel as the only democratic nation in the middle east would be delighted to see.

When people say 8.1 ratio in killing. This maybe corect. I am not sure.

But I would ask you a simple question. If your next door neighbour threatend your existence.

And over time blew up part of your property killing and injuring members of your family. And then they launched rockets and shot bullets into your home what would you do if they did this and then retreated to hide behind there families. I bet you wouldnt wait for them to come back and finnish you off would you. You would use what ever means possible to protect your family. The same aplies to Israel.

Until the Arab nations acknowledge the right that Israel has to exist then it is impossible to have peace. As how can you accept the fact that people who suround your borders dont want you to have the right to exist.

 

The fact is that this devision in Ireland won`t end for some generations yet, as the major majority of family`s have been involved and therefore it`s in thier up-bringing through-out, and mindset is passed through firsthand....eventually it will hopefully be done with but not intill we are long gone and people need to accept this. It will take a long time...

 

the same could be said for the arabian countries. my neighbor is from lebanon and he lost most of his family members due rocket assaults on random towns. he told me a few stories what happened and your israel friends ain't really as peacefully as some on here might think.

as you said, we shouldn't hijack this thread, that's why I just want you to give a personal thought to take along: if you are standing in a room with 24 other people and they all don't seem to be liking you. I wonder whose fault is it most likely? are 24 opinions and individuals wrong or just the other single person?

[SIZE=-1]For they sow the wind, and they reap the whirlwind - [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Believe me, that day will come on day...[/SIZE]

 

These are the same people who would have the whole world turn to Islam and some of the same people who are holocost deniers and call for the destruction of a nation. I guess these are the kind of guys we should be listening to. I right. I guess these are the people to whom you refer.

I honestly understand that people have been touched by violence and this is insane and needs to stop. However I would just like you to realise that at no stage has Israel been agressive to its neighbours they have only retaliated in response to being threatend or attacked.

 

Those country debates are too strong for this site IMO. plus they are too far away and out of touch with media to comment.

 

Ellboy, I find your earlier statement of holding a position against Irish Republicanism (seemingly in or out of Celtic Park) based on a moral stance very peculiar when held up against this post. In particular:

When people say 8.1 ratio in killing. This maybe corect. I am not sure.

But I would ask you a simple question. If your next door neighbour threatend your existence.

And over time blew up part of your property killing and injuring members of your family. And then they launched rockets and shot bullets into your home what would you do if they did this and then retreated to hide behind there families. I bet you wouldnt wait for them to come back and finnish you off would you. You would use what ever means possible to protect your family. The same aplies to Israel.

I'm sure any person living in the North of Ireland, or indeed earlier on in the century throughout Ireland would accept this ststement as a satisfactory summary of the raison d'etre for armed struggle.

You seem to be outlining the caveat for one's right to struggle agianst oppression or injustice, then fail to see the inconsistency in your criminalising of those who have done likewise in another part of the world.

I think this thread has become muddled. Some people seem to think the camps are divided between IRA songs: YES or IRA songs: NO.

It's not about that. The IRA doesn't really even come into it, except as a quick soundbite for those whipping up propaganda a la the right leaning establishment.

It boils down this. Some members of the Celtic family feel that others in the family have unthinkingly joined ranks in an old, long standing attempt at the criminalisation of the struggle that took place. Basically treading on graves and terrible sacrifices paid in torture, prison or with lives.

Ironically, English based officialdom has moved on from this years ago, accepting and promoting thier former 'terrorist' enemies as government ministers in Ireland as per the Agreement. It seems that rancid undercurrent that permeates Scottish society and necessitated the formation of this club in order to make a social stand, still carries weight today.

Consider this: where the IRA have basically enterd Government, in the space of a decade or so, progress has been made whereby the need to defiantly scribble 'IRA' on a wall as some deep seated expression of identity and rebellion has disappered. Disappered because of proper progress, giving respect and empowering people. It's almost run it's course naturally this way. Criminalisation was not the way, and has been proven so.

Why the Scottish authorities cling on to fallacy that if we can't criminalise them for being Catholic we'll get them for being Irish or Republican is beyond me. Further beyond me is how some people disregard past experience and allow themselves to be lulled in by this.

Without resorting to an emotive and cheap retort stating such things as: "no IRA at Celtic Park... murdering.. glorifying etc etc".. can anyone comprehensively state a logical argument as to how we have been cajoled along into dropping songs like BOTOB, Sean South etc.

Feilds will be demanded next, have no illusions, as it too glorifies unlawful acts taken against the Empire .. and remember the article a while back when someone complained to some council over the playing of YNWA in a swimming pool because it was sectarian? Perhaps some people on here should stop being so easily drawn by sensationalism, such as was the case with the disgraceful way this University lecturer Findlay was treated by some fellow Tims at the behest and provocation of the establishment agenda. Where do we draw the line?

I know where I draw the line:

It's by stating clearly that we are not sectarian, proud of our non sectarian history in whatever way that crosses over with a non sectarian struggle in Ireland... and that anyone who seeks to lump us the same as a hate filled supremacist, racist ideology needs to examine themselves rather than looking for a cheap pop quiz, *-for-tat, one's as bad as the other type solution.

The powers that be in Scotland should look across the water at how far has been travelled in 10-15 years from a far worse starting point and ask themselves if thier fallacy of peddling Unionist myth as fact is the right approach.

Surprise, surprise. Once Unionists were challenged finally realised thier myths of Irishness and Republicanism weren't really true, and began working with them in Government as equals, the whole thing moved on apace.

To ritereate the challenge before I go: is there any reasonable logic behind the criminalising of such things as singing BOTOB, Soldiers Song etc, one which won't lend itself to the desire from others to be offended also at Fields and, yes, even YNWA!? * why don't we even drop the sectarian Green and White shirts and expunge Niell Lennon from our history lest we offend those who want to be offended. Wake up call: they are "offended" beacause of what we are, not what we are doing. Neglecting this truth would be foolish.

Before you know it all we'll have left is to shout "Go Celtic" at matches then sit on our hands silently till the next prompt for a shout is given on the screen, properly cleared and sanctioned at every level, of course.

Then, I suppose we will no longer be "the unclean thing", but we'll no longer be truly Celtic, only another football team.

 

every time this thread comes close to ending it gets resurrected. I really was hoping it was dead this time

 

The fundimental diference between the two arguments Nicky is that the IRA was formed on the basis of the rights of its people being taken and diluted. Therefore being opressed as CATHOLIC IRISH CITIZENS.

In regards to the struggles in the middle east between the Israelies and the palestineans opression is a myth as the argument is totaly diferent. Israels goverment doesent wish to remove the civil rights of the palastineans they just wish to live in peace and equality. This is impossible as there is an inbred hatred that is still being taught today that teaches young adolesent Arabs that Israel is the great devil and it must be destroyed. There are many reasons for this atitude but the main one is there religion they dont tolerate any other faith but Islam and any non believer must be either converted or killed for there sins. This is barbaric and far more dificult to change opinion.

Also Nicky my point is not peculiar as one entitiy (IRA) no matter how you dress it up is a non elected organisation of wich has caused destruction and carnage in the name of religion.No matter if its intentions were and are hounarable the killing of any inocence can never be justified and therefore shouldnt have a place of reference inside a footballing arena.

Another entity Israel is a democratic nation with its goverment voted in by its people who dont cause destruction and carnage in the name of religion they defend there right to exist against anyone who threatens it. This is a glaring difference in regards to your argument

In regards to the songs you mention maybe you could educate me in relation to their origins as I am genuinly ignorent as to there point and why they were written. I guess although I may be wrong they were either written or adopted by the IRA therefore being used for getting there point across. A point that is no longer valid as the world has moved on and there is no need to stir up old emotions and opinion that has no place in a modern day footballing culture.

 

Both loyalists led by Paisley and the ira turned it down. My point is that the sdlp and uup accepted the agreement. They were the sensible ones but the extremists paisley and the ira wouldnt compromise and so there were 20-odd years of pointless strife that led to a deal that was almost the same as sunningdale anyway. Thats what I call tragic waste.

 

there is also a misconception that the ira were all about social equality etc. Sinn Fhein may seem that way now but they have stolen the sdlp's clothes. It was the sdlp who concetrated on equality and organised peaceful civil rights marches. The ira was different and was more interested in flags and sovereignty. I honestly believe that if Scots with an interest in Ireland, especially those from a labour background, knew more about it, then they would have been supporters of the sdlp, not the ira.

 

ellboy if you ain't gonna stop we will be here forever

seriously, I get the impression you measure everything by the same yardstick. it's like every arabian wants to wipe out every other religion - that is simply not true. I got a few muslim mates and they are great guys. the islam is a friendly religion as any other as well. we get a false impression because some extremists preach hate, which is against the teleological sense of the koran.

you seem to ignore there are always 2 sides in every beef, war, conflict. the hate towards israel ain't because they are jewish. there's another background. without favouring any side, fact today is, that there are basically 2 sides: israel and every other country over there. israel are having high tech weapons, thanks to the US of A, while the arabs get the old soviet stuff. the big brother effect is a huge factor in that deadly game: if the usa weren't right behind israel and weren't supporting them, I don't think israel would have treated it's neighbors the way they did over the past years. nobody wants really to deal with the americans, especially under the bush regime. but as I said, the american support will be away one day or just not as tough as today and the other countries around will be ready for war.

in switzerland we say: if you ill-treat a child all the time, one day the child will be grown up one day and take vengeance.

 

have to say not only israel's behaviour towards the arabs is negative in my eyes, it's negative as well towards the western of europe.

 

I am sory m8 but your views are inacurate in regards to isaraels behaviour towards its Arab neighbours. Without going into long winded points about the problems of the middle east. I would just point out the fact that Israel has open borders to all walks of life no matter race creed or gender. In fact Muclim/Arabs have the same benefits of any other dinmomination within Israels borders. How many other middle eastern nations can you mention that shows the same tolerance to all.

In regards to your Muslim freinds I am sure they are moderate and are absoloutly fine in terms of their opinion and are indeed great guys. Hey I guess they like there freedoms that they enjoy in a western civilised comunity. I have never tarnished these guys with the same brush as hardline Muslims there is good and bad in all people. It just is a fact that most Arab nations are run by hardline dictators who follow a warped idea of the muslim religion and that is the problem. They preach there hatred of freedom and democracy for there own agenda and because of there ban on all things western there retoric is all there people know this I am sure you must agree is dangerous.

This conversation between us came about as someone on here said that Israel has used Terrorist organisations. I was only pointing out to the origional poster that his statement was incorect. And if he was looking to nations that not only have used terrorism in the past but they also fund them than he should look at the likes of. LYBIA,SYRIA,IRAQ,IRAN,Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and most recently Pakistan. All these nations are intolerant to western values and believe the world should adeer to there laws. This belief is what is causing the problems around the world not a small democratic westernised state that is 2 miles wide and 80 miles long that just wants to be left alone to prosper and live in peace.

In regards to support from the USA to Israel you are corect that they have supported them. However the security of Israel is paramount and any wreapons or assistance they have aquired is for just that self defense. They have never started a war or attacked a neighbour but they are constantly threatend by all around it. If they didnt have these weapons as a deterant they would have been wiped out long before now.

 

I will add to this discussion that in my opinion religion of all sorts is useless in this modern world and are the causes of so much pain and heartache throughout history. This is insane and anyone who lives there life in acordence to a book is week minded and mis guided. Only my opinion and I am sure not a lot of people will agree.

This although is why any religious belief should have no place inside a footballing arena as Football is the only religion worth following.

 

is this football guys ?

 

I think both sides are poison now. I think the Israeli attitude to the arabs as the country was being set up and expanded was shocking. I find it hard to understand how a people who went through so much discrimination and far worse could then have such attitudes (militaristic, imperial, involved in ethnic conflict) to another people so soon after WWII. I am not going to get into the complexities of this but the problem is the extremists. Isreal was constructed by extremist idealists and arab resistance is run by extremist idealists. There are a * of a lot of decent people but their leaders are rotten. IMO, a much much smaller Israel should have been formally created for the Jews by the UN and its borders then maintained by the UN, by force if necessary.

 

I don't think I need to stop 60,000 fans singing songs about the IRA as, quite simply, there is never an utterance about the IRA when I attend home games at Parkhead, thank *.

I always find it incredibly strange that people who sing songs about the IRA claim that they are neither sectarian or full of hate. They seem to adopt a holier than thou approach to terrorism in which they claim their actions are justified and morally correct.

Take a look at the present day IRA army council. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are part and parcel of that organisation - don't kid yourself that they are not.

What has the killing and terror achieved for these so called freedom fighters? Quite simply, a seat in Stormont, probably the most despised institution in the eyes of Catholics/ Nationalists/ Republicans on the whole island of Ireland.

Was it worth it? Were 3,000 deaths worth fighting for something that we could and should have had 30 years ago had it not been for Paisley and his ilk?

It was always going to take the DUP and Sinn Fein to get into power to sort this place out because they would not let others do a job without them getting top seats. Like spoilt children they have won the right to govern and they have decided that bitterness and hatred has no place in our society any more.

Yet, these two groups are responsible for more death and destruction than anyone else.

What would the proud IRA volunteers who gave up their lives in the name of freedom think now? Was it worth it? Would they give a * if the IRA was sung about at Parkhead? I doubt it somehow.

Sinn Fein and the DUP have come of age. There will be no more blind eyes turned in relation to the singing of sectarian/ hateful or divisive songs at football games in Scotland any more. It will not be tolerated by any party in Scotland and cannot be justified without causing offence by the parties in NI.

Try and justify the IRA all you want, Hoopy! Or, better still, grow up, look at the society you live in and contribute something positive to it.

Stop sitting on yer hole justifying a long lost cause or group. Stop blaming others for all the hatred.

Start working for the betterment of our whole society in your own personal way and don't leave it to others.

'Every Little Helps'

 

I would advise you to back your statements with facts. It is very dangerous for people who form an opinion on matters of great sensitivity and fragility when they have little knowledge in regards to the subject matter that they are trying to discuss. As I say a liitle knowledge on such a volatile subject is very dangerous.