BBC reply to Cup Final complaint

Yes

 

* the BBC and SFA

 

Funny... Haha!

 

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing to you as the next stage in the BBC’s Complaints procedure following an initial complaint submitted under reference CAS-771762-21QJL4 and a subsequent further complaint under reference CAS-810351-PF5M1W.

Both complaints emanate from the BBC Sportscene presentation of the Scottish Cup Final on 21st May 2011 and specifically the allegations made by the presenter of the programme in the course of the half time discussion with studio guests. For the avoidance of doubt as to what was said I would have provided you with a “you tube” link but note that this has now been removed from that site by the “owner”.

My recording of the presentation finds the presenter Rob Mc Lean cutting into a discussion between the studio guests regarding events in the first half to say

"I'd love to go through a football show without mentioning the word "sectarian" but I feel we are going to have to at half-time because those outside that can hear the songs being sung, tell me that the Celtic supporters have been singing some sectarian songs during the first half despite Celtic going very public with their intimation that they wanted it completely stamped out. Lots of publicity for Rangers, punishment for Rangers from UEFA as well, it seems as if it is happening outside from the Celtic supporters".

In addition to my original complaint I must add a further complaint that through the complaints process the Head of Sports whom it is suggested answered both complaints has caused offence by a refusal to answer specific reasonable enquiries regarding the chain of events and was untruthful in his or her answer to my original complaint.

The complaints process online offers a selection of reasons for the complaint.

I chose bias as I believe that BBC Sportscene has been biased in its reporting and presentation .

My reasoning for making such an allegation is based on the lack of comment made by BBC Sportscene on the occasion of the Scottish League Cup Final on the 20th March 2011 regarding songs and chants from Rangers supporters at that match in contrast with the direction given to the presenter of the Scottish Cup Final in May.

In particular I find the response of the BBC to complaints made following the Scottish League Cup Final difficult to reconcile with the response to complaints regarding the game in May.

In response to complaint regarding the game in March the BBC said

“It is not and has never been custom and practice for our commentators to offer opinions on chants from the crowd.”

This was the BBC’s stance then regarding songs and chants which Graham Spiers in the Times was moved to describe in the following way:

“Alas, no one who was at Hampden Park as a neutral, and who had any understanding of the type of songs that were being sung, could have found anything remotely appealing in the antics of the Rangers support.

For fully 120 minutes the Ibrox legions belted out stuff about the Pope, Fenians, and some of their other favoured subjects.

Quite a few of us have become used to “the Rangers problem” over the years but Sunday at Hampden was still quite an eye-opener. It was the consistent, incessant nature of the bigoted chanting that was truly shocking.”

There was no comment from BBC Sportscene that day despite the common knowledge that bullets had been sent through the post to the Celtic manager Neil Lennon and two Celtic players Nial Mc Ginn and Pat Mc Court, whilst controversy surrounding sectarianism displayed by Rangers supporters was at that time the subject of ongoing investigation by UEFA.

Moreover, it was known that Rangers had been ordered as far back as 2008 to make a public announcement at all of their home games prohibiting the chanting of the song "Billy Boys".one of two songs that were loudly sung that day. The other (The Famine Song) had been judged by the Scottish Courts via judge Lord Carloway in May 2009 as racist because it called on people who were native to Scotland to leave the country because of their racial origin.

I would remind you that in response to complaints regarding the BBC’s lack of comment on that day the BBC said

“It is not and has never been custom and practice for our commentators to offer opinions on chants from the crowd.”

What then I ask caused the change in editorial direction that led to Mr Mc Lean’s comments in May?

It was said in the response to my complaint that

Sectarianism and associated behaviours have been the topic of much comment this season and five editions of Sportscene in April and May took time to debate the issue in relation to the general problem and to specific incidents such as the sending of parcel bombs and the fining of Rangers FC by UEFA.

To repeat the BBC has said “Sectarianism and associated behaviours have been the topic of much comment this season” As this was the case equally in March 2011 why was the sectarian and racist singing of the Rangers support on that day (as acknowledged by UEFA and the Scottish Courts) not worthy of comment yet the alleged sectarian singing of the Celtic support in May was?

The BBC has suggested now that as opposed to using the word sectarian

it would have been more accurate for our presenter to refer to "songs that some people believe to be an expression of sectarianism but which many people nonetheless find both offensive and provocative".

Well I for one would find it difficult to know if I could possibly agree with the Head of Sports since despite requests in both my original and follow up complaint to be told what song(s) the presenter was referring to I have not yet had the courtesy of an answer. I am aware that others have jumped to a conclusion on the point but I believe in dealing with facts. I believe I have asked a reasonable question and fail to understand why Head of Sports chose to insult me by not providing an answer.

In the reply to complaints regarding the singing of Rangers Supporters at the Scottish League Cup Final the BBC said

It is not and has never been custom and practice for our commentators to offer opinions on chants from the crowd. They are there to describe the game. Also, whilst commentating they are wearing headphones and listening to the director’s voice in their ear, so I would be surprised if they could accurately make out crowd chants in any case.”

I do not then consider it unreasonable for me to ask who on this occasion were “those outside who can hear the songs being sung” that Mr Mc Lean referred to in May? Presumably they were not anyone associated with the commentary team if the earlier response holds water ? Who then were they and what did they hear?

Is that too unreasonable a question to ask?

I have to ask what has the Head of Sports to fear in answering the question?


As I have said before clarification as to the authority of those making the judgement that Celtic supporters were singing sectarian songs would seem to me a basic prerequisite of balanced and impartial reporting. I along with the rest of Sportscene’s audience have been left in the dark as to the bona fides and authority of the individual(s) who informed Mr Mc Lean.

No reply has been given to these reasonable questions.

Again I have to ask what has the Head of Sports to fear in answering the question?

I did originally complain that BBC Sportscene lazily referred to sectarianism without clarification of what the term actually means in reference to the songs and chants they were referring to and that they should clearly draw distinctions between songs and chants that are political as opposed to those that are racist and/ or display religious prejudice.

I emphasised that as a publicly funded organisation it is part of the BBC’s remit to educate as well as inform.

I said that Sectarianism as one size that fits all is not acceptable.

I was therefore pleased to some extent that the Head of Sports acknowledged that the use of sectarianism was incorrect yet I find the description of

"songs that some people believe to be an expression of sectarianism but which many people nonetheless find both offensive and provocative".

to be completely unhelpful particularly as the editor refused to tell me what songs he was referring to or to offer an explanation as to who these “many people “ were?

Were these for example “those outside that can hear the songs being sung” that Rob Mc Lean referred to but whom the editor refused to identify in answer to my question.

What I wonder constitutes “many people” ?

Is it acceptable for a publicly funded organisation to treat its customer base in this way and ignore reasonable questions?

Apparently the Head of Sports believes he/she has that right.

Can you clarify for me whether or not you share that view?

In the reply to my original complaint the response said

BBC Scotland will continue to report on this and all other areas of public interest and debate in a fair and balanced manner over time.

As my complaint is in fact that the BBC did not report on this in a fair and balanced manner, I find this statement condescending offensive and inaccurate.

If the BBC were to comment in a fair and balanced manner then they would have made no comment on the 21st May since they found nothing of sufficient interest to comment upon on the occasion of the Scottish League Cup Final in March.

That they did comment in May raises serious questions regarding the impartiality of BBC Sportscene staff and its editorial direction.

Again I would ask the BBC to explain to me why was there a difference in treatment by the Head of Sports on these occasions?

On a factual matter regarding the original response received it was untruthful to suggest that


At the half time interval of our live television broadcast of this year's Scottish Cup Final the presenter and one of the guests briefly mentioned that sectarian singing had been heard coming from a minority of Celtic fans.

The presenter did not use the word minority. He said “the Celtic supporters” which suggests all.

That I contend requires BBC Sportscene to offer a public apology for the offence caused to such as myself who do not use sectarian language nor sing sectarian songs and who for the record and on the record have consistently taken a stance additionally that no political songs should be sung by Celtic Supporters.

I would remind you of the comment passed by Will Wyatt, former BBC Director General the Independent in relation to the Panorama/Primark scandal. He said: “It’s always serious if you present the public with something which you say is evidence of wrong –doing and it isn’t”.

I would also remind the BBC that Celtic Plc is a Public Company ultimately responsible to its shareholders. The actions of Celtic Supporters and how they are viewed has the potential of reflecting on the financial well – being of the Company in terms of sponsorship and associated financial input and as such unfounded allegations such as those made by Rob Mc Lean on 21st May could affect the financial health of the Plc. On that front a public apology is needed to restore the reputation of both the Celtic Support and the Plc.

As I have suggested previously that apology should be made to the general viewing audience throughout the UK who have the ability to view these programmes via satellite transmission and also to those countries worldwide which took transmission of the programme on the day.

In the same article in the Independent BBC trustee Alison Hastings, Chair of the Editorial Standards Committee is quoted as saying that “investigative journalism must be based on the highest standards of accuracy”. It would be most difficult for anyone to determine how accurate the journalism was that day in view of the intransigence of the Head of Sports in answering simple direct question posed by a BBC license payer. I allege that it was wildly inaccurate. Indeed it was defamatory and requires redress.

Condescendingly the generic response to my second complaint suggests that

Whether or not you choose to pursue your complaint with the ECU, please be assured your further concerns have been registered.

It is an insult to the intelligence to believe that after a display of such arrogance as evidenced by the replies received that any other notice will be taken other than to register a complaint in the statistics held.

Taking note of that complaint and taking action upon it is what I now require and hope that this will now be taken more seriously than heretofore.

Answering the questions posed would be a good starting point. The absence of replies might lead one to believe the Head of Sports has something to hide? Perhaps you can disavow me of such a notion before the matter is referred to the BBC Trust.

I look forward to hearing from you in a timely manner.

 

^^^ Outstanding! Absolutely top notch

 

@Simpy

BOOOOM!

 

That will probably be binned as soon as it makes it onto a BBC desk. You make some valid points but the argument follows no tangible thread and lacks any coherence.

I found that frankly headache-inducing.

 

Race (noun)
A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language

 

Is this an attempt at humour?

Simpy has produced a very well thought out complaint & on behalf of many other Celtic fans that he may never have met personally, is pursuing this matter, as I am, because of the gross inaccuracies & inadequate responses made by the BBC to the hundreds and possibly thousands fo people that were offended by Maclean's comments & the allegations that the BBC made, which cast dispersions upon the Celtic support.

I would encourage you & any (or as many) other Celtic fans to continue to write to the BBC over this matter, as it would appear that to date they are certainly not taking this matter seriously.

Keep at it Bhoys & Ghirls.

 

I applaud his efforts, but I struggled to get through that. I imagine it will receive short shrift from BBC staff who have shown they couldn't give 2 * about Celtic or their fans.

 

Be that as it may, there is a process for these complaints & eventually, if a satisfactory explaination, acknowledgement or apology is not forthcoming, this process will eventually lead beyond the BBC to the attention of Ofcom. These are serious allegations that the BBC have made & as such it deserves serious discussion.

Those who have the ability to act have a responsibility to act.

 

You've looked this nonsense up on wikipedia? Irish people are NOT a race. No matter how much you read about it on the internet. By your standard every country must be a race. Start with my self. Culture, history, language.....I'm Dutch. So being Dutch , means I'm part of the Dutch race? :bbpd:

 

Look....they can pontificate (how about that as a Papal related word) all they want about songs that are "offensive and provocative" to some. We know some of the songs they are referring to e.g. TBOTOB, but the fact is Her Maj did not have a problem with laying a wreath at the IRA memorial in Dublin which included those who fought at the GPO. So that puts that argument away.

There may be other songs that they raise as being offensive "to some", I dare say that some English folk might make the same objection to half the songs sung by The Corries.

 

Please don't start the whole "race" debate.

"Race" is a socially constructed term used to catagorise people, the meaning of the word changes over time and place. The word in itself doesn't have any real meaning and alot of theorists argue is really of no use to descibe people at all. It basic catogories people into nonexistant groups that can be exploited and then this can justified becasue these people are "different".


Always new that course on "race" during my degree would come in handy for something haha

 

haha...sure. Ofcourse you did.

 

Please keep this thread on topic.

 

Haha actually was part of my socilogy masters. Specialised in race and race relations.



As for the BBCs repy, not really getting anywhere with them. Anyone heards back from OFCOM?

 

I've had a response from Andrew Bell The Complaints Director today.

It basically indicates what the Editorial Complaints Unit can investigate and summarises what he sees as the relevant points made in that context and which he can therefore deal with. Other issues it appears e.g why the subject was raised and who said what to whom for example need to go back to Ian Small Head of Public Policy & Corporate Affairs at BBC Scotland.

What is interesting is that he suggests that

“As you may be aware, however, we have received a large number of complaints on this issue, and if we were to deal with them in the normal way, investigating each complaint separately, it would be many weeks before some complainants received a finding. In order to reach a speedy determination on the essential issues, as they are reflected in the totality of the complaints we have received, we propose to deal with them in a slightly different way.”

That way it appears is to deal with what he considers the essential points.

He says

“In my view, the essential points of complaint, raising particular editorial issues, which emerged from the complaints we have received, can be summed up as follows:


That the programme inaccurately described songs as sectarian which were not
In fact sectarian,.

That in doing so, the programme was unfair to Celtic supporters who were
,,said to be singing sectarian songs when this was not so,`

'And that the programme was lacking in impartiality by focussing upon
allegations of sectarian behaviour by Celtic fans and failing to mention recent events which involved allegations of sectarian behaviour by supporters of
Glasgow Rangers.”

You will note that he says

failing to mention recent events which involved allegations of sectarian behaviour by supporters of Glasgow Rangers.”

I don’t know about anyone else but that was not my complaint. My complaint was that Sportscene made no comment on the day of the Scottish League Cup Final of widely known and unlawful sectarian singing by Rangers Supporters and excused their lack of comment then by saying

It is not and has never been custom and practice for our commentators to offer opinions on chants from the crowd. They are there to describe the game. Also, whilst commentating they are wearing headphones and listening to the director’s voice in their ear, so I would be surprised if they could accurately make out crowd chants in any case.”

Despite that lack of comment then because

It is not and has never been custom and practice for our commentators to offer opinions on chants from the crowd

the BBC then proceeded to cast a slur upon all of the Celtic Support attending the Scottish Cup Final by suggesting they were singing sectarian songs.

The issue for me is that the decision for this different treatment was an editorial decision involving a change of policy and was therefore biased and unfair. That is the issue I require a specific response on and is an issue which the BBC must explain and for which the BBC must publicly apologise.

 

your spot on he's deliberately trying to miss the point

the point is clear they didn't do or say anything at all when rangers fans were singing actual sectarian songs at the league cup final

but they decided to blame us for sectarian singing when we weren't

it was a setup and a malicious one at that

it's almost like they got a lot of stick after failing to mention the rangers fans sectarian singing at the league cup final and after getting stick from somewhere made a decision there and then to get us for it the next time wether we done it or not

keep complaining people, get them to publically make an apology

 

I have not even had the courtesy of a response from the BBC regarding my further complaint, and as has been illustrated in Simpy's update on the response he has recieved, it is still all too apparent that they are not treating these issues with the gravity that they should. Again, they have acknowledged in the email response that Simpy has provided that the BBC has recieved many complaints in regards to this issue & that it may take some weeks etc... So much so, that there has still not been a published acknowledgement on the BBC Complaints website of even a single instance of complaint over this issue.

After having read Simpy's update, I am all the more interested in seeing what reply that they conjure up for myself & to compare notes. Again, I would suggest it is in the interest of as many Celtic fans as possible not to allow this matter to slip, but to rigourously pursue this through to a satisfactory conclusion.