Atmosphere today = Fantastic, THE SONG DEBATE..

Im SNP myself but we must be approaching 15 general elections since WWII and independence parties have never had anything near a majority. I am just facing reality that a big majority of Scots still value their Britishness (to varying degrees). So tons of folk will be offended by stuff thats anti-British. You cant allow mass singing of songs that will cause anger.

 

i agree with this post 100% this is one of the reasons the atmosphere at home is so bad you cnt sing and u cnt stand the atmosphere will pick up this wednesday but

 

From what i've read, the old IRA used and prefered guerilla tactics, and as a new breed wanted to use stronger measures ie. terror attacks on the uk etc. they split and the provo's were formed.
Am i wrong here?

As for offending people, if songs about the easter uprising etc. offends someone then to * with them. Its an event that took bravery in the face of opression and ultimatelly death.

Heroes every one of them.

 

Keltoi, i'm glad to hear your pro independance, i take your point, but for me they are arseholes with their britishnes, the english will be luaghing at them. Supporting the very thing that strangles your nation.

 

'Why' doesnt matter. You cant expect people with no connections with Ireland to understand its history and distinctions between old and new IRA etc. How is your knowledge of Welsh history? Mines pretty sketchy.

Scotland's story is not Irelands. We were never oppressed by English troops in our history except for a small part of the south of the country by the Edwards for a few years about 700 years or back, a few Years in the 'rough wooing' about 500 years back and a few years under Crowmell who was the only one to overun a lot of the country. Our king inherited England not the other way round. The jacobite uprisings were civil wars in Scotland not national wars v England. Finally, Scots actually benifited out of proportion to the English in terms of positions of power under the UK and empire in trade, politics, the military etc. Even today Westminster is full of Scots in top positions to a degree the English complain about it. Not saying thats a good thing but its an established fact.

There was very little of the social exclsuion of the majoirty of the population for relifious or ethnic reason. The main dictator of opportinity was class. Scotlands history in the UK is utterly different from Irelands. Its braveheart holywood history to make out they are similar. They were utterly different and that is the reason why Scotland still is in the UK while Ireland was never happy in it. The real reason IMO to exit the UK is so we are not outvoted by a right wing England every time.

 

You don't come across as much of a nationalist keltoi.

What about the oil
The closure of the yards
The dumping and allowing yanks to dump their nuclear waste
The centralisation of wealth to the english capital to the detriment of the rest of the UK including Scotland
Poll tax experiment

To mention a few.

 

The bottom line sites like this show how many tims do not share the same politics (often the non-republicans are the quiet ones). We have Irish republicans, torys, socialists, Marxists, SNP, the lot. So its not really fair for those who dont share the views to be subjected to political soapboxing when watching a game of football. As I already posted, it takes at least 100 years for poltics to become just history and we are not there yet in terms of the IRA stuff. Its too raw yet. Famine stuff is OK though IMO.

BTW, I very much doubt Bro Walfrid would have supported far left views or violent republicanism. The church hated both types at that time. So thats not what the club was founded for. I personally think there was far too much influence from N. Ireland in the 70s and 80s which brought songs and attitudes that were not originally common among the famine immigrants.

 

The church basially supported and aided the oppression of the people, it suited their cause, keep them poor and we'll keep them ignorant must have been their motto.

 

yes but what country has a majority population that happily listens to songs about fighting against itself in recent times. A bit of realism is needed. Would you allow people to take Israili flags and march through Brick Lane singing Zionist songs or loyalist songs about resisting the Irish at Derry to be sung in a march through Dublin? Course not because there is a profound difference of world view, tempers would flair and it would look like incitement.

There is a time and place for all things (Ecclesiasties/ the Byrds:icon_mrgreen and the bit of mainland Britain with the worse loyalist element is not the place. Equally, the bit of Britain with the most unintegrated Irish catholic population is not the place for Irish loyalist songs and symbols. Both have no place in football grounds.

 

Are you being facetious?

 

Keltoi, i don't consider myself british. The IRA weren't fighting my country.

As for allowing people to march through areas who don't agree with their views, are you kidding, what about orange marches in scotland and ireland. isn't that incitement, do we get any justice?

 

I know this isn't an Irish history debate, but since you offered the above context...

You're forgetting the Young Irelanders rebellion of 1848 (and the fact that the year 1848 is known for just that, a wave of rebellions across Europe). That's a few months after "Black '47", a year with the infamous tag of being the worst year during the famine (1845-50). If you'd watched your people starving for 2-3 years, being neglected by the most powerful nation on earth who ultimately put you in the pathetic state you now faced... don't you think you'd say enough is enough? Don't you think that would amount to SOME call to arms? Ah well, that's my two cents.

You can't really get a better Celtic song than LTPS:

"The music did survive, through famine and oppression,
to the generations gone, I'll sing for you this song...
LET THE PEOPLE SING!!!"

 

Thats clearly very wrong too (but mostly a thing of the past bar one or two now) but two wrongs dont make a right. Where there is a big divide and two sections of the population have opposite views on an incendary issue then IMO these views have to be aired with care and in the right company.

BTW, re me not sounding like someone who wants independence, I have always said that my main reason for wanting it is nothing to do with history or oppression (we just dont have anything remotely comparable with the suppression of the Irish), its simply to do with the fact Scotland is too small in the UK to influence the governement to the degree we can if independent. England has never had a Labour majority since 1945 and the need to get the English vote has meant we have a right wing Labour party as a compromise

 

Anyway, this was the atmosphere yesterday from round about where I was meant to be sitting.. and it sounds like ooh aah up the ra in this video, not the Samaras version, and it's basically the full stand singing it..


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18iPMbfl6-0&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

 

Great post

 

But famously, Irish violent republicanism was very unpopular with the people until as late as the executions after the Easter Rising which created martyrs. That was a lesson the British govt had forgotten during the hunger strikes.

 

If you consider yourself british keltoi what does it matter, that being the case, every region outside london would want influence or independance. you wrote earlier words to the effect that we have done well from the scraps from their table.

As for the bolded statement, you shouldn't put words in my mouth, i never implied that.

 

i think one of the reasons the atmosphere is better away than home because there is alot of people with children at the home games and they dont drink plus they dont want to go mad infront of their kids. at away matches there is less children and alot more drink.

 

Mainly due to the church preachings.