Issues with producing our own players

Karamoko Dembele, Barry Hepburn, Liam Morrison, Ben Doak, Daniel Kelly, Rocco Vata.

All of the above are examples of players who were highly rated, with 4 of them making appearances for the first team. All of them left before they could establish themselves as a first team player for us.

Obviously if clubs like Bayern Munich or Liverpool are interested in any of our players, it's going to be difficult to convince them to stay. Financially we can't compete. But to give context on what we're up against for top level youth talent, someone within the game has mentioned Tyler Dibling (18 years old) at Southampton is on 8k per week, with the Saints offering him a 4 year deal on 30k per week with a yearly % increase.

I don't know what Vata or Kelly will have been offered to move to Millwall and Watford but we apparently offered Kelly around 5k a week but he still had his head turned.

Anyone else feeling increasingly pessimistic about our ability to produce our own players for the future? The stated aim is 'creating Champions League level players for Celtic' but anyone with that level of potential gets snapped up before they can even properly break into the first team.

 

We're not going to be able to attend all of we don't sort out the proper player pathway. We get a large bench, but how many times this season have we had any youth on it? Twice? Turley got that wee cameo early on and that's been it. Yes we have massive pressures to win all the time but that's no excuse, look at any other major league, they have it established and play, Ajax, Man city, Bayern, PSG, etc. they all manage to give game time to youths there's no reason we shouldn't.

We can't compete on wages Vs the big leagues that's just simple truth but we should be presenting an opportunity for them to prove themselves in the first team. No I don't mean that they shouldn't earn that place, but we have players shining for the youth (aye its the lowland league but so *, thats the current best option for them until taht changes) but also performing in the uefa youth League. Get at least 1 spot on our bench for a youth player, then start bedding them in when we're comfortable in games

 

Just gonna have to wait and see what happens with the youth after the Barrowfield development, hopefully that's the springboard to get youth making a more regular impact at first team level again, I also think the whole youth system on the coaching side should get restructured too, no disrespect to McManus, O'Dea, Hayes all involved with the youth setup, but we all know there are youth coaches we can hire far beyond what those three bring, football is a ruthless business, if we want to see more productivity with our youth then hiring the best we possibly can should be a top priority on that side of things once the new Barrowfield complex is up and running

 

Poor level of football during their development years
Poor loans or lack of
No pathway
No players to see making any kinda breakthrough whatsoever

Unless the above starts to change, then they'll keep flooding out.....particularly the best prospects..

 

Might be in the minority here but if a player would rather go to Millwall or Bristol Rovers than stay here a while and try and break through, then good luck to them.

If a young player is good enough to play for us, he’ll get minutes.

If a club like Liverpool come and pap 10k a week at a 16 year old, what you’ve done or not done up to that point is a complete irrelevance. They’ll be away in the blink of an eye.

I’m critical of the club on many levels, but this issue isn’t one of them.

 

Aye I'm not being critical of the club when teams like Liverpool come in, I know the club tried their best to keep him but there wasn't much we could do at that point. I heard Liverpool offered Doak 4 times what we were, so that's going to be very hard for a young lad to turn down.

My concern is more, there have been players such as Kelly who have been good enough to get minutes, but decided to move on. Not going to pretend I know Kelly's reasoning but is it simply that we're not giving players enough opportunities?

 

It is a really difficult one and hard to pinpoint what the main issues to be addressed are.

1. You have a culture here which doesn’t exist in continental Europe, where a lot of teams are willing to put in their own talented youngsters. Club Brugge were a good example against us where both full backs were young prospects from their academy, supplemented with talented youngsters from other similar leagues such as Danish, Swiss, 2. Bundesliga.

2. However to do what Brugge are doing you need to be bringing through players of a sufficient talent level and I do question if our B team squads are at that level? Are we doing a good enough job at identifying and attracting suitably talented players?

3. The level the B team play at is insufficient, if that’s the best we can be offered our pathway management has to be much smarter. I.e play an under 18s team as the B team where they will get roughed up and used to playing senior football but with a view that if they show anything at that level even for 6 months your getting them out to at least a decent Scottish Championship side. Given those players wouldn’t count as our loans we should be having 18 year old players out at the likes of Falkirk, Ayr, Queens Park, Dunfermline etc if they show anything in the Lowland league at all. In addition, we need to be forming partnerships with league one English clubs to do the same. The better European teams at developing players often have their b team in the second division but that’s never happening anytime soon.

4. Sometimes we need to push the boat out on special talents or those who we think are. Make them a first team player and take a chance on them rather than sign a Yang or Odin Holm. It’s a gamble but we will never know otherwise. You play risk missing out on a young foreign talent but our academy is actually pointless just now.

5. This is based on hearsay but there is a lot of talk about the level of organisation and coaching at youth team level not being the best. There does feel like bringing in fresh ideas from the continent may be a good shout here. I think we missed a trick not poaching the Dutch guy who came to be part of the Queens Park project from AZ Alkmaar before getting a good job at Ajax now.

Essentially there is no easy fix to this and I don’t think physical infrastructure at Barrowfield creates results without the other things being addressed.

It is very difficult for us here to know what the reasons for the failure to produce players is. We don’t know the process or what is going on, for example is McManus recommending Frame, Cummings, Turley etc should train with the first team and that he believes they have a shot and Rodgers and his staff see them and are saying miles of it or is there consensus between the B team staff and first team that they aren’t ready? What happens then? Is there individual development plans for the players? When is O’Dea involved? Is he then instructed to find them a loan?

It would actually be interesting to hear from O’Dea about his role and what he gets up to? Not in a critical way, I am just interested what that day to day looks like? How he interacts with coaching staff at first team and b team level? How he stays in touch with those on loan? Does he travel about and watch them see how they are getting on and feedback?

 

There are probably a few issues that mean youth aren't progressing.

1. For years we had a scattergun approach to signing too many players around the 1-3m bracket who all want game time and many arent good enough to start. If you are a young centre half or midfielder at celtic at the moment, you are probably anywhere between 4th-6th in the pecking order.

2. The drop off to the B team in the 5th tier of Scottish football does not allow players to develop to a level that they could reasonably step up to play at a champions league club. How does beating Gala fairydean 2 0 prepare you for first team football at celtic?

3. We don't give first team minutes to youth, even we were are utterly dominant. Last week we could have players a few youth players with zero risk against Ross county and instead we are bringing guys like hatate, engels, and Taylor off the bench. Makes no sense to me.

4. Maybe there just isn't the talent there to improve celtic at the level they want to play at? Richer English clubs with bigger scouting networks are focusing more on Scottish youth post brexit and we are a small county with a small talent pool. Top EPL teams might have 50 youth players on their books and maybe 1 might breakthrough to first team. We can't operate at that scale. Maybe the best approach is to allow players to develop in Scotland through minutes at smaller clubs then sign up the best ones.

 

We find the scattergun £1-£3M to be moderately financially successful (in the eyes of our accountants), it partially short cuts the development of players and generates a quick return, so big Peter is happy.
That's our (flawed) model.

Developing players takes talent, time, risk, and effort and the financial return isn't as immediate or as obvious - so we limit youth investment, both financially and on sporting side.
A new building or complex on its off will not be a solution.

The question of whether local players are good enough - how will we ever know?
We can also recruit young players from others in Scotland - as biggest team, we really should be able hoover up all the most promising players before they cost £5M - but we don't.
Why would they join anyway when they see Yang and other mediocre investments play ahead of any youth development.
The ones we do have leave for the same reason, or the allure a huge salary/club.

We've walked passed players like Hickey, McGinn, Doig, Miller - even going way back to Robertson, Lambert etc - because they are somehow lesser than foreign players.

Any 'big' club needs a good balance of recruitment and development, sadly we are almost exclusively recruiters with primary goal to add to the cash mountain.
This chokes off development due to bloated squads of mediocre or just plain poor 'investments' that we feel we have to play to generate a return.

We must have one of worst track records in European football finding and bringing youngsters through in last 5 or so years.

 

We all want to see a lot more home grown players knocking at the first team door, why are we failing so miserably, I don’t know but the numerous players that have left us will have their reasons and hopefully this is passed onto the management team.
Hopefully this young players will feel valued, coached in good facilities by good coaches instead of the old bhoys club and feel as though they can achieve the dream of pulling on the hoops at Celtic Park.

 

I think it comes down to what money they are offered elsewhere, the lack of a reserve league doesn’t help either. By that I mean it doesn’t allow the coaches to see these boys develop through the age groups then to reserve team football.
In addition, there was no way any manager was playing any youngsters last season. Can you imagine putting your job on the line just so you could say, “well we never win the league but I played a few kids!!!”.

 

We don't even really consider playing them in cup and after the league is won type games which is where we have given those hoping to come through normally get some game time.

Part of the downside of the only thing considered a success is winning every game.

 

I created a thread a while ago, about the Lowland League and maybe bringing back the reserve league as a prerequisite to top flight membership. That could be subsidised by member clubs..

Playing Lowland League football isn't developing our talent and we should pull out of it.

We appointed Darren O'Dea as 'pathway' Manager, so the club recognises the need for it, but what makes O'Dea actually qualified for the role?

Hopefully, youth development is something Paul Tisdale is looking at. As it seems the young players who are good enough leave the club before or when they are on the cusp of making it.

 

From what I've heard it seems fairly common for ex-players to get these types of roles at clubs around the country. I do wonder how attractive a job it is to ex pros or coaches in the game.

 

I would like us to recruit from a club with a proven track record in developing youth players. Instead of the usual nepotism.

They could be in charge of everything to do with the Youth/Reserve setup.. however as you say how attractive would that be when we're playing in the Lowland League and the structure of youth football in Scotland is fragmented.

 

Yip I agree and that’s the problem, driven by us. I have to say it’s a difficult situation for the club and manager no matter who it is.

 

We could do an Airdrie and buy out the Huns, should be affordable in a year or 2, and rebrand the club in the same way Clydebank was, change the name to The Celtic and use the "new" club to develop our youth.

Obviously knock down the * hole.

 

Some are saying there is no quick fix, which is true in how we develop our own players.
However, an immediate fix could be made as early as next month. Sign the 5 most promising u18s from other teams in Scotland in January and get them training with the first team. Then create an internal rule of 2 of the 9 seats on our bench have to be dedicated to u21 players.

This whole "we need to keep our foreign signings happy" approach is nonsense. We've always stockpiled foreigners, even when we only had 5 places on a bench and 3 subs. If they aren't good enough, they should be loaned out or sold.

It should be easier than ever to have a pathway for youths now that we have 5 subs every game. We choose not to.

The SFA/SPFL should be imposing rules, but we also need to take some accountability.

 

Kasper, Sinsalo
Johnston, Taylor, CCV, Trusty, Scales, Valle, Ralston
McCowan,McGregor, Hatate, Engles, Bernardo
Kuhn, Maeda, Forrest, Yang
Kyogo, Idah

Core 20 and even at that, Ralston and Yang could be dropped in favour of youth talent to develop.

Another 5 to make up the UEFA squad and would give us 10 total for him grown.
I'm leaving out guys like Holm and Narwocki, clearly we are running the season without them in the picture.

There is no reason we can't have identified 5 youth talent who could be on the bench fairly often.
Given cup games etc.


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There's a few issues in my opinion

1. I think the overall standard in the academy is pretty poor, whether that's down to coaching or player identification or bit of both I'm not sure.

2 in line with 1st point I think the standard of coaching isn't at the level it should be for a club our size. A bit like other areas of our club there are people who have been in roles and positions of responsibility for over a decade with very little to show for it.

3. The standard of competition, get the * out of that * lowland league. It's absolutely garbage. No player is going from 5th tier Scottish football to our 1st team squad.

4. The absolute * up of appointing Darren Odea to a crucial role in youth development despite him having absolutely * all knowledge of it. We are dreadful at securing, good and beneficial loan deals for our youth team players.

5 due to a combination of previous 4 points we haven't produced a genuine 1st team player from the youth academy in 7 years and even then it was Ralston who's hardly a 1st team regular, ud need to go back 9 years to Tierney for that. Therefore youth players are jumping at 1st offer they get bcoz they think they will get better opportunities elsewhere even if it's at a * hole like Millwall.

6. Modern players. Society has changed and with that so has views of young players. Before the dream would be to make it into Celtic 1st team now it's more like dream is to make money and look like a flash wee * on social media

Academy needs overhauled, the level of competition they are playing at needs improved upon, and loan system needs to be properly used to create a genuine pathway.

These are all things that have been said numerous times for a good few years now yet as per usual those in charge a the club don't seem interested in doing the work. It's another reason why we are badly in need of a director of football.