Liam Scales

Defenders (except LB / RB) is impossible to use stats to prove a point unfortunately. Those stats would make Scales better than CCV which is just hilariously ridiculous.

Accurate passes, yes but to the keeper or 2 yards to another player?
Defensive headers won, but where do the ball end up?

You could take stats and make Bernardo our best midfielder i am sure.

If you look at top class defenders good at aerial duels, they direct the ball.

Not saying Scales is a bad player in Scotland though. Only in Europe. A great comparisson is Greg Taylor. He was great domestically but a absolute joke in Europe because he got found out there. Griffiths was amazing domestically but got found out in europe.

 

We’re not playing * football or coaching it.
I was more talking about the headers when CCV, Scales, Trusty have very little challenge on them and they just head the ball instead of trying to play it to a player which for a professional should not be difficult. I didn't make myself clear on that one. Obviously defensive duels like crosses etc you're not going to find a teammate as you're just trying to get it clear. With all the data they have now I just didn't know whether it went into that much depth
I know it's been mentioned loads of times by people on here. You look at the top CB's and even with a challenge they seem to find a teammate still. Games against Rangers seem to be the worse for it. Could relieve so much pressure.

 

The stats actually distinguish between a lot of these.

Scales is bay far and away the most progressive defender we have on the ball - all the stats that measure this he comes out of top.

Successful dribbles per 90
1. Scales 0.3
2. Trusty & CCV 0.1

Unsuccessful dribbles per 90
1. CCV 0
2. Scales 0.1
2. Trusty 0.2

Scales attempts 0.4 carries per game with a 75% success rate compared to Trusty at 0.3 carried per game (33% succcess rate and CCV 0.1 carries per game (100%). Scales stats dominate here, he is more than twice as successful as Trusty in his carries and he attempts 4x the amount of carries CCV does.

Key passes per 90
1. Scales 0.4
2= Trusty & CCV 0.2

Throughballs per 90
1. Scales 0.1
2= Trusty & CCV 0

Assists per 90
1. Scales 0.1
2= Trusty & CCV 0

Scales on top of everyone of these metrics again, these are the progressive stats, these are the ones where the player gets involved in the final third most, these are the passes that try and play through the lines and the ones that create chances. Once again Scales is on top on all these metrics. CCV and Trusty once again are shown as far more conservative in their passing out from the back.

Accurate long balls per 90
1. Trusty 2.9
2. Scales 2.8
3. CCV 2.1

Inaccurate long balls per 90
1. Trusty 1.5
2. CCV 1.8
3. Scales 2.3

Accurate short passes per 90
1. Scales 103.9
2. Trusty 102.6
3. CCV 101

Inaccurate short passes per 90
1. CCV 3.7
2. Trusty 5.4
3. Scales 6.6

Scales falls down a little here in terms of his completion but he is the most active player on the ball with 109.5 attempted short passes per 90 (94% success rate), Trusty 108 attempted short passes (95% success rate), CCV 104.7 short passes attempted per 90 (96% success rate). So Scales obviously shows more for the ball. There is minimal difference between all there defenders here in reality.



In terms of long passes Scales again is the most active in terms of passes attempted 5.1 per 90, but his accuracy level is just 55% here. Trusty is best in class here with 4.4 attempted per 90 with an accuracy level of 66%. CCV once again the most conservative on the ball here with just 3.9 long passes attempted per games and a success rate of 54%.



Unsuccessful touches per 90
1. CCV 0.4
2. Scales 0.5
3. Trusty 0.8

Dispossessed per 90
1. Scales 0
2. CCV 0.1
3. Trusty 0.2

Scales again performs very well here. Unsuccessful touches is a bad//loose touch that leads to a loss of possession CCV leads this narrowly over Scales. Trusty worst in class here but in his defence he did play a proportion of his football playing as a right sided centre half last season so it may have contributed to that.

Dispossessed per 90 is when a player gets caught in possession, Scales is the leader in this which effectively would state he is the safest pair of feet on the ball, this should not be surprising as he is also our best ball carrier out from the defence and keeps in line with his other high stats in this regard.

So all the stats actually contradict the narrative on Scales that has been perpetuated, he is not the nightmare on the ball some fans paint him to be, he's actually our most progressive defender on the ball, he attempts the most passes, he has the most carries, he wins all the most progressive passing stats.

If its one thing it paints for us that CCV is by far and away our most conservative defender, he attempts very few progressive passes, he is the slowest to move the ball forward, he's takes the least riskiest passes on. He plays it very safe and this can be troublesome when we are trying to beat a low block domestically as the ball needs to move quicker and more urgently and we need to pull teams out of their shape a little more. One thing I've observed about CCV is the amount of touches he will take before passing the ball, this slows the play down, he's also the defender we have with the biggest propensity to hit it back to the keeper.

I'd be very interest to see our passing patterns too if stats are available on it. I would imagine the person that passes to Schmeichel most is CCV and the person McGregor passes most to in our back line is Scales. I could be wrong there but that is what I'd imagine is the case simply because CCV likes to pass the buck on the ball and Scales is most likely to show for the ball when we are building from the back. All the stats point to Scales being our most progressive defender on the ball and CCV being our most conservative.

 

I must be imagining him passing the ball straight to the Aberdeen attackers then and causing dangerous counter-attacks for the opposition.

I don't like the stats because they can skew literally anything. I could say to you, for example, that James Tavernier has won every domestic competition there is to win at the huns and it sounds impressive. When in actual fact he's a serial loser and a total embarrassment for them when the chips are down.

I could say to you that Cyriel Dessers finished as the top scorer in Scotland last season and scored 30 goals in all competitions. Makes him sound like someone you would be desperate to have at Celtic. When in actual fact he's a clumsy donkey that misses ridiculous sitters and constantly fails to control the ball.

You telling me that Scales can make a few passes. The problem is the ones he gives away tend to be absolutely * chronic. Not to mention he's very easily turned and generally takes an age to release the ball too when we need to be moving quicker.

Your stats, for example, make it look as if Cameron Carter-Vickers should be bombed out for someone else. Where as in the course of a 90-minute game, he's far and away our most effective defender due to moments that aren't always captured by basic stats.

You can twist it anyway you like, Scales is pish.

 

Yeah im not disputing that, all im saying is that if you and me stood on the pitch passing it back and fourth to eachother when the opposition team are parked in their own box, we would have a 100% accuracy. Its what you do with the ball and what it creates.

 

There's not too many uncontested headers you'll get in Scotland though. It's pot luck if you find a teammate when you being challenged in the air, most of the time you are off balance, the ball is going up in the air, it is hanging and it allows for it to be competed with. I've played football for years, doesn't matter what level you play it at, you are not going to be trying to find players when you're competing in an aerial duel, you will be trying to find an area. It's a different story to when there's a bouncing ball coming at you and you have time to direct a low place header to a team mate.

This is perfect example of how a defender deals with a header, you get it away. Was Cannavaro trying to find a team mate here? The best defender in the world at the time, he was clearing his lines.

 

It's the same as the thing I posted in the Idah thread. If your centre-forward is doing the business, you don't need stats to back it up and defend him. Everyone will know how good he is.

The same goes for your centre-backs.

If Scales was as good as some on here somehow still seem to think, they wouldn't need to defend it to many and point out that his passing is 0.1% more successful than any other defender we have.

 

I know. I'm just pointing how Scales is far more progressive on the ball than CCV or Trusty are, as supported by the stats with his completion pass rates very much in the same ball park as either of those yet Scales is the one who is called shocking on the ball.

That sort of criticism doesn't seem to hold up to objective analysis does it? It's actually funny that the people who have a very clear agenda against Scales don't want to listen to the only objective metrics available and the reason is they expose the false narrative they have been outlining against Scales.

 

If your centre forward is doing the business the stats will support that. Idah is not doing the business and the stats support that. Neither was Kyogo under Rodgers either tbf.

Scales stats do show he is doing the business though.

 

You don’t need to say you’ve played football for years. I’m sure 90% of people who post on here have played football for years.
It’s obviously a part of the game I see differently to you. It would be easier to describe it to you if I watched a game with you I think and pointed it out .

to be fair Cannavaro was 5”9 so he’s already at a disadvantage to most CB’s because of his height so I think his first thought would be to just win the header. I could send you multiple clips of VVD of aiming a header towards teammates but we will just go round in circles so I’ll leave it there.

 

I love Scales just as i loved Taylor but there are just some types of players, more often they are from the UK that only suits the domestic game but fall short in europe. The list is long and he is one of them. If we want to compete in europe we must shift these guys on and that is my concern only.

Some players i had the same view about is players like Griffiths, Taylor and Stokes to name a few. They did well domestically.

I SUSPECT that there is a risk that Bernardo will be one of those as well. Just a decent player but nothing more. You cant really find the outstanding edging quality.

I don't think people would have an agenda against him, especially not a irish player. I just think people want the best for the club just like we do when we want to get rid of Idah.

 

Mate I literally canny with nonsense like that.

Scales is a big problem. He moves far too slowly and that constantly allows teams to regroup especially when we're trying to switch the play. You won't find a stat telling you that. There are so many faults to his game in terms of being a first-choice centre-back.

He would be a good defender at an Aberdeen or Hearts level. Not at Celtic. He's too slow on the ball on he isn't a good enough one v one defender to make up for it either.

Got any stats on how many needless fouls he gives away by just barging into strikers or grappling them needlessly?

 

You're the one spouting nonsense. I'm the one providing objective and independent analysis that supports the fact that is no basis for what you are saying.

I put the fouls stats up there too. He commits the same levels of fouls as CCV. He's also our best defender in the air.

CCV is actually statistically our slows and most conservative passer. If Scales was Swedish you'd be saying he was an excellent signing. Guys like you are too dug in and too proud to ever admit the abuse you give Scales is completely unfair.

 

I won't argue that he might fall short in Europe but we have quite a few in that regard. CCV passed one into his net against Bruges and got caught the previous year on the ball that lost us a game v Lazio. For some reason they don't get talked about. I could quite easilty create a narrative around CCV but for some reason Scales is held to a lot higher standards than our other centre backs - that's the bit I don't get. It simply has to be because he was a 500k signing from Shamrock Rovers.

 

Guys like you give Scales the Irish boost, absolute certain of it.

I couldn't give a flying * where our good players come from. We have top class Scottish players and have had top class Irish players. If he was Swedish, and still slow and clumsy as *, then I would say that he's still slow and clumsy as *. But he's Irish, so he's Irish, slow, and clumsy as *.

How you can't comprehend why people might not like Scales, then posting meaningless stats about how he has a bawhair of a higher passing percentage than others, is genuinely mental.

Slowest defender we've had in years and it harms our build-up play massively. And naw, I'm no writing a dissertation littered with secondary sources to prove it. I'm going by my eyes and many of the Celtic supporters' eyes. We all have absolutely no reason to dislike Scales. He's from a background and a country where we would all want to see him be a real hero here. But he's not very good.

Again, those stats for example suggest that CCV is pretty *. You going to say Scales is more effective than him?

 

Cannavaro was excellent in the air though. There's actually a video of Van Dijk in the air on YouTube and his defensive headers, half of them go out of play or to the opposition.

 

You keep calling stats that measure tackles, aerial duels, blocks, successful passes, interceptions etc as meaningless. Why do clubs pay Opta millions of pounds every year to have access to these stats. Why are whole departments in football clubs assigned to assembling and analysing these stats if they are meaningless?

You don't like these stats because of what they say, not because they are meaningless.

 

Stats should only ever be used in conjunction with skilled objective/subjective judgement from people who know what they are looking for.

Stats are important, but used alone tell you almost nothing and are typically used in isolation by biased individuals to support whatever case they are trying to make.

 

I've never seen anyone better or more accomplished before with stats than @Agathe17 on any Celtic forum in my puff, for slaughtering posters with agendas, arguably Anti Irish and LOI bias, in this case with Liam Scales.

 

Nobody is on about using them alone but there are a number of people who want to disregard them completely because of what they say. According to some they are meaningless and irrelevant.