Pope Francis dies

His social and moral conservatism is what I like best about Cardinal Sarah. Of course there will be some things the tradition can learn from the modern world, there always are. There are far more things the modern world could learn from the tradition, though.

In addition, if you want to argue as a general principle that the Catholic tradition that sustained a civilization (or 3 civilizations if you take the Christian tradition as a whole) for 2 millennia needs to "move with the times" towards the values of a modern culture that in just 60 years has degraded western civilization to the point it's at now, then the burden of proof is definitely on you. I don't see it.

 

A lot of irony in this post.

You bemoan the decay of families, communities, and the environment, but want to cling to the “traditions” of an institution that has covered up abuse on an enormous scale, shunned countless people over their sexuality, and maintained an all-male power structure with nothing in the way of democratic accountability?

We’ve made a lot of positive societal progress since the 60s that you conveniently paint as a negative, while the church has dragged its feet and remained in the past.

On the topic of sickness, there’s clearly something quite sick about instructing Africans not to use condoms during an AIDs epidemic - and yet the church did just that. There’s something sick about suggesting that homosexuality is evil and rooted in sin, tearing apart families and alienating people who had the audacity to be born gay - and yet the church did just that. And there’s something inherently sick about telling women they can’t be priests because Jesus chose male apostles, while ignoring the fact that Jesus also didn’t build cathedrals, wear gold robes, or sit on thrones — and yet the Church does just that.

You say that we should be careful about modernising but don’t give an argument as to why. The “wait and see” approach doesnt make sense. Society is dying so the church should do nothing differently?

The reason the church is struggling is caution, stubbornness and a refusal to change with the times. It will be the death of it eventually.

 

There are definitely a handful of things we should keep from our modern culture, particularly equality of women and the unacceptability of racism. These things are genuine progress, but they are massively outnumbered by the negatives. You know a thing by its fruits. Look around you at the fruits of our modern culture and its "progress". How's that working out for us? How long will our culture last if we continue?

Does that mean I think that the church has never done anything wrong and shouldn't be criticised? Of course not. The abuse was a failing of the church at a particular time and place, and absolutely should be condemned. Who could possibly defend that? Abuse is emphatically not part of the tradition, though and nobody I know of is arguing that it was anything other than pure evil. Cardinal Sarah has been one of the most outspoken voices in condemning this.

Regarding sexuality, AIDS and condoms, I think you misunderstand the position of the church. It's not church teaching to shun people for their sexuality. I'm not denying that religious people (including Catholics) have done so; but it's not Church teaching. Church teaching is that * has a purpose and that any deviation from that purpose is a sin. I must admit, I used to think that was nonsense (both bologically and morally); but as I look around, I can see that I was wrong. Apparently, divorcing * from its purpose leads to some very dark places in the long run. That doesn't mean I think I am morally superior to gay people (I'm definitely not). I think there are much worse abuses of * and sexuality than, for example, * between 2 men in a loving long-term relationship, things such as using *, having affairs and indulging in casual *.

TBH, I still don't really understand why these things are wrong; but I can see it is so by looking around me at the effects of playing that forward for 60-odd years. I shouldn't really be so surprised that church tradition turns out to understand much more than I do. Similarly with AIDS, you stop the spread of AIDS by not having casual * rather than using condoms. By definition, if you are using a condom, you are using * for a purpose it's not meant for and it's * you should be abstaining from.

I love the cathedrals. I think it's amazing that the most beautiful buildings in Europe are dedicated to * rather than any human being or organisation. I suspect that you might be right about the Church hierarchy being all male; but I think we should be cautious about rushing to make changes for the reasons I mentioned above. You say I don't give a reason why; but I thought it was clear that I was saying we should be very cautious about copying aspects of a culture that is clearly very sick indeed.

 

Although I am not a devout Catholic, I respect this man. I like many others, grew up from my biological siblings in Ireland, because of the shame being born out of wedlock. A lesser man would have brushed off what happened to women and children in the Laundries and Mother and Baby Homes.

Francis met the victims in person, and listened to their stories. He was a proper leader, and what a man should be. Whoever is next, has big shoes to fill.

Rest in Peace


For those unaware, Redmond is one of the campaign leaders in ireland, to unseal the records of Mother and Baby Homes. He has also written a book on the subject.

 

I think you should check out protestantism

 

They stole Cathedrals