Rocco Vata

Definitely fair points but I would say Liam Henderson wasn't quite in that category when he went and he's made a go of it. Still playing in Serie A.

Wouldn't have predicted 5 years ago the number of Scottish players who'd have played in Italy. Most (all?) seem to have done well.

 

The comparison I was attempting was that he couldn't get game time at Celtic. I agree in terms of experience Vata is miles off Henderson.

Can't see Vata getting game time here in the next few years in all honesty. Even if he goes out on loan and does well not sure that'll change anything for him. Such a tough step up.

 

Agreed.

Said for years we should be making playing academy players in the first team regularly as part of our setup and ethos. Hard to compete with other leagues on money alone but being known for blooding youngsters in our team would help us out longer term I reckon.

 

We just simply don't give fair game time to youngsters or work their development.

The last 2 18 year olds we put into the team were great (Ajer and Frimpong) both of whom were signed for peanuts to go into academy first. Why the * can't we give our actual academy players the same chance. Tierney only got in on luck of injuries to others, same with Welsh and Ralston just now.

Give them a shot at things and see what happens. What's tillio got over a Vata? Have a youth or 2 on the bench and if things are going well put them on and see how they do for us.

If we don't, we will just bleed talent and be * when it comes to the quotas for Europe.

 

Apparently he's signed or is signing a new deal then heading out on loan to Aberdeen tied in with a cut price Scales deal, hold up is possibly that Aberdeen don't know if there in Europa or conference yet.

The press have been throwing out negative stories for weeks now regarding our players dont think there's much in this the kid wants to stay apparently and has been told what he needs to do to be a first team starter.

 

Good stuff. New deal, work his * off at Aberdeen, get regular game time/perform then back next season ready to slot into the team.

Space will open up with Forrest, M.Johnston, then possibly Abada and Haksa not being here in a years time depending on how things work out.

 

Tillio has 80 plus first team appearances in men’s football and contributing to a goal in approximately half those appearances.

So Vata is exactly where Tillio was 3 seasons ago and he needs to be managed into the team. The likes of Cal had to go out on loan to bridge the gap to the first team, so short of him being an unbelievable prospect or he gets a chance and takes it like Tierney or Doak, he’s got to go prove himself before he plays for our 1st team.

 

I hope this is right would be a big boost, to keep a talented youngster with first team potential for the home grown quota too.

A season at Aberdeen would be perfect for him if he can force his way in to their team.

Scales going there seems inevitable, if we get Lagerbielke in you would expect that to happen after that.

 

They need to scrap that rule.

Only rule perhaps they should have in place is that the lads can't play two matches (for either side) without a set time between games (say 48hrs) to actually protect them.

The 5 games rule is absolutely mental to think about. It provides no opportunity for the kids to step up, but if are struggling with the demands, to be able to go back down for a period.



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Aye, so give someone like Vata the game time where we can so they can get to that level of experience. The staff see them train every day, either they're all * and not deserving of game time in which case the entire academy needs ripped up or they are at a level we see the potential. (I'm not * on Tilio specifically, he's just the clear "project" signing that's probably not going to get a lot of game time this season especially coming in injured, probably won't be in the European side whereas our academy players can on the B list)

We have had success with some going out on loan before coming back in (Cal, Christie, Ajer) but we've had tons more that did decent on a loan then never got a shot.

I don't buy that players require a loan before they can play with us, Look at City, they put youth straight in, Foden, Rico Lewis, Palmert, other EPL teams, Wan bisaka straight in at palace, Brandon Williams at United, McTominay at United, Hudson Odoi at Chelsea, Sterling at Liverpool.

We just do not give chances to our youth despite opportunities too. Doak only got put in games because Liverpool were sniffing about and he's looking like he will be a first team player for them this season. It sets a clear pathway and gives the hope to them. In the little appearances last season for Summers and Vata they both looked good and contributed to those games, why not give them the 20 minutes when we're 3-0 up, prove it that way and then give them 45 in a game that's not settled etc.

 

Would like him to sign a new deal and get some game time this season but if he does look to move on can you really blame the boy? If game time with the first team is not looking likely then you cant blame him for wanting to move instead if playing lowland league football for another year or 2 where theres not much room for development.

 

For me I thought he didn't look fast enough to play on the right for us which means he's never going to get a game as we're not going to play him in midfield where Turnbull plays as you can maybe carry a striker or full-back but not a midfielder or winger the way we play.

Aberdeen would be a good move, not seen them this season but they do play wide players and like a front 2 and he can probably play him where Duk plays or wide so should get games for them.

 

Doak is different gravy and should have been the one we pushed the boat out for. Problem was he was 16 and we probably couldn’t offer him a professional contract due to his age, this gave the opening for Liverpool to swoop in. Doak is the equivalent of the players you speak of above at the EPL teams, not Vata.

When we talk about Tillio as a project, we are talking about a player who’s 80 games ahead on Vata, a guy who’s played for and against teams that would tear Ross County apart.

So yeah Tillio is well ahead of Vata in level. You can see it in the body type, Vata has more bulking to do, Tillio while small looks like he belongs in the men’s, not the youth. Doak was well further ahead than Vata in physical development.

All of this said, I’m hoping Vata stays and we find a pathway for him to come into the first team. Not every player develops equally, so we just have to be patient and find that pathway. It may be 3 months, 6 months, could be 2-3 seasons, but if we persist and end up with a Forest or CalMac, we are laughing.

 

It's amazing how any youth we've managed to keep isn't ready, undersized not bulked up enough etc and anyone's that left were the 2nd coming and in Doaks case way more physically developed, I just can't see that. If Doak stayed here he would still be scrambling about for minutes here and there, it's just what we do. Our fans despite all their claims don't really have the patience it requires to bring youths through due to the nature of this city and it's 2nd is last attitude.

 

McGregor was probably a similar player to him actually when younger, technically very good, natural goalscorer, played wide mostly but not really a natural wide player or fast enough, then once he was 18/19 when he started playing number 10 more and then ended up finding his place as more of a centre-mid and now even deeper.

Vata to me seems more naturally attacking though, feel like he will end up more of a Haksabanovic or Stokes type player wether that will be here or elsewhere who knows.

 

The fact is 95% of youth players just never make it to professional football probably at all teams. The way you are talking is like we constantly let players slip under the radar who were quality, maybe happened twice with Robertson and Hickey but thats when they were 14 and 15 or something. Nobody has ever been under used and let go and went on to be good, they just were never good.

Doak would definitely be playing for us and probably have made 30/40/50+ appearances by now if he stayed. He was more devloped than Vata when he was 15 than Vata is now.

Fans do have the patience, most fans would have wanted Doak to get more games and if he done well would like him starting.If Doak signed a new contract with us in January 2022, he'd probably have made 10 appearances before the end of the season, he was only binned because he was leaving.

It's most youth players don't have the ability.

 

Youth players don't get the platform here that's pretty clear. Vata will most likely move on, like Doak, Dembele and the floods of youths heading south and even to the continent in recent years and it's not just solely about more money. The majority of them could very well not make it at and decent level as you say but there's a good reason most don't see a future for themselves here and the one or two that are top will have slipped through our grasp. You are right to mention Hickey as an example, he didn't see progression here and moved to somewhere that he though would show him that. I think this is a pretty well known issue for us recently.

I don't agree Doak would have seen that amount of games by now btw. Doak has moved for more money but also Liverpool have a very decent record of bringing youths on in to the first team under Klopp, I.e a clear pathway. That was probably a key factor.

 

So you dont think Doak who was on the bench and playing since 16 would have continued getting a game the next 18 months?

Dembele just was never built for mens football, hes about 5ft 4, has great technical ability but you need the allround game or you're only ever going to cut it at really low levels. At his height he is nearly incapable of beating a proper footballer on a run, he's just not got near the mobility. He probably would not be able to beat Ralston or Johnston or Bernaberi once in 100 attempts, Even Greg Taylor not the quickest would probably catch Dembele the majority of the time over 10-15 yards. He's too limited physically and he is unable to play as a midfielder or striker due to his lack of height and physicality. He was always doomed to fail as he's just not big enough to make a dent in the mens game.

If there was guys good enough they'd get a game, someone mentioned Frimpong and Ajer were played at 18, Abada was 19, Holm is 20 and will get games etc if there was guys that good they'd get a game. Doak is that good and would have been playing.

Vata could be good but he lacks the allround game, hasn't fully developed physically and probably hasn't yet found his position. Could be he ends up a striker, wide player, attacking midfielder maybe even deeper midfielder. Will probably depend on his mobility and build when hes about 20/21 where he's capable of playing. He'll not get games for us because he's not yet good enough to get a game if he ever will be.