Phil Mac - The Celtic away support.

Perhaps I should have said he was encouraged to write it then. Its certainly a seeming change of direction from him. Not the best move from someone who relies on us for attention though.

 

Even though my family are all staunch Celtic fans and catholics (grandmother's family left/run out of Ireland during the troubles and grandfather was extremely active in politics in Glasgow) I generally don't comment on these threads because I live in the US and, as such, I'm far from the real effect of the issues at hand. Having said that, this is one of the most enlightened things I've read here regarding the issue. I fully appreciate that there are those that feel letting go of these songs and traditions is a betrayal of their heritage but it's rarely considered that this (football matches) may not be the most respectful forum to venerate their ancestors and their sacrifices. I think that was the most important part of Phil's article. It really disheartens me when I see so many willing to turn on those who they've praised whole-heartedly in the past - McBride included - when they have the nerve to disagree with them in the slightest way. That, as far as I'm concerned, is not the Celtic way.

 

to be fair he does raise some valid points, and I doubt many of the people commenting read the whole article, escpecially the end where he points out that we should be celebrating our history in the * movement and the old IRA, its only the PIRA that he is disagreeing with

 

Hes one of these ones that likes to pick & choose his republican movements to back..
Did the people that the old IRA kill in battle not count as it was so long ago??
The PIRA were as valid -& indeed a continuation of- the old IRA that he glories in his grandad being part of.
And he uses an ex-PIRA prisoner as an example in his article spouting pish about how he doesnt sing the roll of honour during games guessing that its because of some sort of lump in the throat respect .. well maybe its cos they are watching the games in a quiet pub with there kids as he stated before that.

I admired Phil before this but i think hes starting to believe his own press a bit too much with the t-shirts being another example!!

"Rebel journalist" it has printed on them.. yeah as long as its the old black & white rebels who you can look at through a misty eyed sentimental way!!

 

I think that is a ridiculous idea to be honest.

 

With the exception of his point about Rangers policing their fans under Craig Whyte (they had backed themselves into a corner, long before he turned up), then I thought it was an excellent article. It is true a lot of the fans who sing these songs, have little real conception of the real context from which they were born.

I will sing these songs, safe in the knowledge that I'm not doing it as a GIRUY to others. I do it because, as he said in the article, we are a club born of rebel traditions. But to be antagonistic as opposed to progressive is pointless.

 

spot on. Anyone who tells me that simple blind defiance and a girfuy tendency isnt involved in this to a significant degree is blind. Its written all over the body language of a lot of fans. There is also a tendency to excuse all our faults as shown by people defending and arguing for retention of the few songs we do have that do make specific negative references to protestants and their founders. We have tons of songs and there i simply no need to sing those few songs.

 

Although I clearly dont have much politically in common with you, I do agree that the distinction between the old ira and the later incarnations is false or at least exageratted. The reason why i am against all republican (as well as loyalist) paramilitary songs is simply they are about fighting Britain and songs taking the side of fighting Britain in recent times are always going go down badly and offend a considerable element in Britain. Its just the wrong place for anti-British songs. Basically anywhere but Britain for anti-British songs. You would not get a lot of happy faces if you started singing pro extreme islam songs in America. Britain is no different.

No country with any self respect is going to be happy with people coming over and singing songs that are anti that country. That is the core reason why Irish paramilitary songs have no place in open venues in Britain. People often say why are Irish in Britain singled out for more controversy. The reason is simple. People do not like others taking sides against their country, particularly by people who have come to live there or visit. This always creates a reaction force against it.

It is not just the Irish. The Italians in Britain during WWII (including those born in Britain) were rounded up into detention camps simply because of their origins and the fact Italy was on the other side in a conflict. Basically, the one thing that will create hate and offense is supporting another country other than your own in a conflict. I am not interested in the rights and wrongs of each conflict or a history lesson but basically its a rule of thumb that if you have views that are anti your own country then they are best kept private. If not there will always be a large element in any country who will take offense. Its nothing to do with principle. Just common sense.

 

Fantastic posts, Gunt.

 

i usually agree with most of what phil usually says, but im afraid i dont agree with much of this article

 

A sensible Timmy. Spot On...

 

Interesting point this. Compounded by the fact that the majority of Irish-Scots will most likely be Labour voters as opposed to nats!...Not, taking sides on that one, it's just an observation.

Out of interest, if the same irish-scots fans that are singing the songs we are talking about were equally vocal about Scottish nationalism (as another form of opposition to 'Britishness') would you feel different?

 

Statistically the voting thing has not been true for a couple of decades. Scottish catholics are equally likely to vote SNP as protestants.

As for your second point. Most Scots have both Scottish and British aspects to their identity. The older they are the more the British element is strong and vice versa. Again you have to understand that pre-1600 Scotland was a strongly independent country but for a very long time Scotland then bought into the union and there was only very weak nationalism in Scotland between say 1800 and 1960. Nationalism is only a recent revival. People still on the whole do not reject the British period of Scotands history. Britain's history is most Scots history too for 3-400 years and you dont just reject that. So, people will view Britain between the union and the present as their own history and their own side.

The other thing is that there has been virtually no violent edge to Scottish patriotism for over quarter of a millenium. There is no recent taste of murder and killing in the name of a flag etc. Scottish nationalism just doesnt have that undertone of hate and violence. I am proud of the fact that Scotland has not stooped to violence on this issue in a very long time and for me that will always put it in an entirely different category.

As to whether the Irish Scots (a not very useful term by the way - we are mainly all mixed with as much Scottish blood) were more vocal about Scottish nationalism would it help? Well it would remove an absurdity whereby people obsess with the history of a country they have mainly never lived in and freeing it from the union but at the same time vote for a unionist party like Labour!!! That is a sure way to make people resentful. I actually think the culture at Celtic has often failed to draw on the original meaning of the club name and tends to come across too much as an Irish heritage club obsessed by modern politics where Ireland and Britain are at loggerheads rather than drawing on the deeper common Celtic or Gaelic heritage shared by Scotland and Ireland to integrate. In some ways the way it has worked out it would more appropriate if the clubs had been called Edinburgh Celtic and Glasgow Hibernian.

 

Yea now see I have similar feelings that perhaps, in some respect, the club hasn't embraced a sense of Scottishness to the same degree. If an intrinsic sense of 'anti-Britishness' is used as justification for certain songs then surely these fans must share, at least in principle if not emotionally, similar disdain for Scotland's place in the union. NOTE here that I am making clear distinction between a sense of 'anti-Britishness' and a sense of Irish nationalism that would, on its own, not necessarily correlate with Scottish independence. This is where I find your argument about location to be a fascinating one - It is a case of justification. What is your justification so to speak. In this respect, I find a more holistic nationalistic approach to hold more water. I think, if I'm getting you right, you're reading from a similar page. It certainly highlights a fairly pervasive hypocrisy.

As for a debate about the term 'Irish-Scots'...perhaps another day:icon_mrgreen:

 

Just saw Phil McGillobhain down town there.. i was tempted to have a wee debate with him about his article but he was with a friend so didnt think it would be appropiate & to be honest i dont fancy my chances debating with a journalist anyway :icon_mrgreen:

 

Is he still calling himself the "rebel journalist" after penning this piece of pish ?

The man probably couldn't even find Celtic Park on a map.

 

Lets be honest lads, when it comes to songs about Irishness, religion, Irish politics, republicanism etc, you could argue untill the sun comes down on what's appropriate and what's not, what's sectarian and what's political. The thing is though, how much of it is relevant to 21st century Scottish football? In my eyes the answer is absolutely none of it whatsoever.

My family are Irish and I'm extremely proud of that, and I think Ireland should be one country. I wouldn't sing about that at the football though, because the two aren't related in any way. I love Hibs FC but don't think of them as a political movement, no offence but some Celtic fans need to realise what your club is, just a football club.

I can see why these songs were relevant back in the day when Catholic's were disadvantaged people in Scottish society, but now as far as I'm concerned they aren't. Catholic schools are known to be of a very high standard, and you won't be stopped from getting jobs because of your relgion. Time has passed and the majority of Celtic fans are Scottish, and yet whenever I visit Parkhead I never see saltires but there's lots of tricolours. I have nothing against tricolours as I consider myself half Scottish, half Irish, but where's the harm in showing pride for both like Hibs do?

There seems to an attitude of "if the huns sing sectarian/anti Irish songs, we should sing our songs". There's no doubting what a horrible, vile club they are, but I think Celtic need to get their own house in order and leave them to it. I'm sorry but "ooh ah up the ra" is a poor show, you can say it's about the "old IRA" but clearly people will associate it with an organisation that's murder toll is in to the thousands, both Protestant and Catholic.

Hope I've not offended anyone, just my view.

 

Good post mate

 

You're a Hibee, I'd never have guessed

Hibernian FC are complete sell-outs.

 

How so?

Hibernian FC are a club founded by Irishmen and supported by Scots in the majority. Our fans are happy to call ourselves a Scottish club, but we're proud of our Irish history as well. If you don't think that's the case, or you think there's something wrong with that, I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning.

"If you know your history", the original Hibernians had to disband and come back with a slightly different name and a non-sectarian policy because a certain club in Glasgow pinched half their squad. Doesn't sound like the act of a charitable, peoples club to me.

It seems to me like Celtic and Rangers have worked together to milk the sectarian divide for commercial purposes, hence why people from nowhere near Glasgow support the old firm because they're Catholic or Protestant. If not doing that makes you a sell-out, I'm glad to support sell-outs.