are arsenal bigger than us

Well put.

And you accuse him of moving the goal posts
Celtic and Snake Mountain have more funds because of their fan base and wide appeal in Scotland and abroad. It's a totally different subject than being handed a large transfer kitty from a global marketing company.
Celtic has earned their fanbase and the patronage that comes with it over many years. Teams like Arsenal were handed a lump of cash, a monopoly on tv and were suddenly "the next great thing". It's like some crappy teenybob pop artist that anyone who appreciates music knows is * but is still popular with the horde of teenage girls that will buy whatever is shoved down their throat next.

 

GUNNERKADO

i couldn't agree more this is going nowhere now . i should have known this when i started this thread TBH .

agree with most of your points well put

 

Ok one last time before I stop with this thread

Arsenal and other English teams did not suddenly become powerful after 1992. They all had varying degrees of success prior to that and English clubs only began to assert dominance in Europe towards the end of this decade. It's not just money, it's our clubs getting our act together. Rangers spent loads in the 1990's trying to conquer Europe, but they're not English so it doesn't matter obviously.

The Old Firm are two clubs who built up their profile by cynically exploiting the sectarian divisions within Scottish society (particularly in Glasgow) for financial gain. People of Irish Catholic descent flocked to the Celtic, the club promoted as the Catholic club. Rangers in turn appealed to protestants amongst native Scots and some Irish migrants who were Protestants for mass support.

This early 20th century marketing ploy came decades before SKY in England and all their gimmicks, and reaped dividends for Celtic and Rangers. This encouraged people to attach themselves to both based on ethnoreligious affiliations. Many people in Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Dundee, Motherwell and Kilmarnock chose to chase this image of the old firm rather than follow their local sides.

This allowed the Old Firm to increase their revenues well beyond that of most other clubs in Scotland. Edinburgh was nearly as big as Glasgow but Hibs/Hearts never challenged properly because their marketing appeal was nowhere near as sophisticated as the Old Firm's.

So Celtic and Rangers used this vast revenue to swallow the best talent in Scotland (at least the ones who didn't flee south) with their promise of better wages and facilities and again the big image. All done while encouraging the sectarian flames amongst their fans since it was their unique selling point and therefore cash cow.

And it has continued to this day. The two Glasgow giants, while not so blatantly nowadays, still accept the rivalry and its dark connotations as a means of attracting support amongst Scots and Irish the world over. IT IS ALL ABOUT MARKETING. Using this, they not only swallow up the best playing talent, they swallow almost all fans in Scotland.

It is why Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs etc have found it so difficult over 120 years to compete with them. In England a whole number of teams have won league titles and cups over the years, this was not so in Scotland. And all for the reasons I just mentioned.

Celtic fans can go on about their wide fanbase, but it was cultivated by a cynical marketing ploy that begun well over a century ago. Celtic and Rangers were at it long beofre SKY and the English.

And that is why there are so many Americans, Aussies, Canadians, Irish and so on who support either Celtic and Rangers. Because both clubs have marketed themselves as ethnocentric clubs and appealed to this tribal mentality.

So next time you all slag off English clubs for swallowing up so much money, just remember you lot were doing it since the beginning.

 

Fair enough i suppose, lucky its not huns i guess.

Forget that.... Ban him above me )

 

I would say no. I would say we have more fans. Just look at the number of supporters clubs throughout the world Celtic has. Fair enough Arsenal will have more fans in Africa as they have a lot of African players, and the EPL is shown more there, but in places like USA and Australia, I would have said Celtic are far bigger. Add to that the European cup win we have aswell! But thats just my opinion

 

I never claimed England was a * league as you seem to think. I've already stated that...
1. A team like ManUre earned their place even without Sky money. They were classy before it and they'll probably be classy after it. I'd add Liverpool -- though they could end up going the way of Leeds if they're not more careful.
2. Only a big league like England was capable of the global marketing which occured. I singled out EPL, Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga and *possibly* Ligue1 as the only leagues that could have done this.
3. Arsenal were * before Sky. Just look at the George Graham era. Stagnation at it's finest!
4. I see you keep on poking at the domestic argument ignoring the points I've already made there. You're comparing apples and oranges. There's a massive difference between building your fanbase in an equal competing arena over a long period of time and being handed a big transfer kitty "just because". Arsenal did nothing themselves to earn that -- it was handed to them.
5. It's pretty insulting to say Celtic have marketed an ethno-centric tribal culture. In fact, that's very much against what the club and supporters stand against. Celtic has always welcomed players and supporters regardless their background or religion.
6. Arsenal is nothing more than the Britney Spears of Football. Enjoy it while it lasts.

 

Well said

 

Dont give me that * mate, ive browsed Arsenal mania and id say 1% of posters gave celtic a bit of credit and thats fact. The ignorance on that site towards celtic and the SPL is well worse than this site so get off your high horse and deal with facts. football fans on every side are bias, deal with it. You dont like the reception here dont post, personally I have no problem with yous and think yous give a good argument but dont try moan when people disagree with yous, just remember where yous are.

I also think your sympathies lie more towards arsenal than they do celtic and thats not a pop at you just my opinion. I dont have a problem with it at all.

 

I think the fact that we are having this discussion even with the differing current world wide exposure of the two clubs speaks volumes.

Celtic are a club that throughout it's history have been hugely popular and successful, winning many trophies and making many friends all over the world, from the giants of Barcelona to smaller teams like St Pauli. Take for example our tie with Villareal a few seasons back which resulted in a Villareal Celtic supporters club being set up. Arsenal do not have friends like this in the football world.

Fanbase - It's difficult to take fanbase numbers as conclusive but all over the world there are Celtic supporters clubs with genuine fans going to any length and packing supporters clubs in the middle of the night to see their heroes play. Arsenal, while being a well supported team, have many of the now popular African and Asian plastic fans who have taken a shine to Thierry Henry or whoever or have bought a strip off the street and become a fanatic overnight (see the post a few pages back, written entirely in caps, from the indian guy. was so ignorant no one even bothered to argue with him). these fans only exist because of the SKY TV deal that has made this debate last more than two or three posts.

Passion - Celtic is a team that actually means something to people, a club that stands for something, that have been hounded to the edges of society in our own country yet have still risen to the top by staying true to the values that the club was founded upon. you can hear this in the songs sung at parkhead week in week out. if you expect to hear anything with any more substance than "oh to be a gooner" at the emirates then you will be found wanting.

atmosphere - this is a quick one, no one has claimed the emirates to be anything near celtic park in terms of atmosphere, and it isnt. the fact that arsenal have a stadium named after a sponsor is pathetic, shows them to be the soleless BUSINESS that they are.

money - the be all and end all. before the money came into the english game, arsenal were not a big side, they were not a good side. it is all well and good to argue that they have made a profit selling players over the last few years, where does the money for their wages come from (bearing in mind Celtics highest earners will be looking at £30k a week maximum compared to Arsenals stars on upwards of £80k) ... SKY... again. where did the capital for the arsenal stadium come from ... SKY (oh and the fact you agreed to sell its name).

trophies - hard one to measure as arsenal play in a better league with more teams, but we have the european cup that you want so badly, so we edge it in my opinion.

another point on the league though. many of the english will have you believe it is "the best in the world" but i cant see any reason why id rather watch bolton vs stoke or blackburn vs hull over falkirk vs motherwell. i think outwith the top 4 the league is poor, shown by the lack of success in the uefa cup (which if the league was so strong top to bottom as jamie redknapp and glenn hoddle would have us believe the english should be dominating).

current team - the only area i think arsenal are a bigger team than celtic (but guess why they have a better team...MONEY/SKY...again!)

Arsenal will probably put Celtic out of the Champions League this season, but are they bigger club... don't make me laugh.

 

Talk down all you want mate you obviously twist things for your own benefit it really gets me though when people do that. Little bit of lesson for you since you need it.

1. ManU 700M in debt and losing money fast with out this magical Sky money Man U is in adminstration. Look up some of the debt and how it is spread out in some very high interest loans. Even winning the treble two years ago and the new Sky money look at the results for Red Holding LTD. Did you know about that and how do you figure they will survive?

2. Of course because there isn't enough competition or quality in the smaller leagues clubs like Celtic and Rangers having between 3x and 18x the wage bills of the other clubs sees to that, but all you can do is talk about Arsenal money while ignoring your own or saying you earned it pretty funny why not spread it around then atleast everyone gets their share of the SKY deal in England its what you do on the pitch that expanded Arsenal's share what hope do Hibs have? You tout your glory in Scotland yet say Arsenal are where they are because of money, its a two way street atleast Arsenal's point of contention every team gets.

3. Why don't you clarify when this Sky money came into the picture for us all. The Sky deal increased 66% in 2007 so is that when you are talking about or what. If Arsenal were * than they would of got less or equal share then the other EPL clubs right no fans small club * results why do they deserve more than why didn't all these other clubs with more money surpass Arsena or maybe Arsenal was top 5 FA cups and still 3rd in Titles before SKY ever existed?

Sky accounts for about 20% of Arsenal revenue if not them then ESPN, BBC, ITV might be a bit lower but would still only be about a max of 5% drop in revenue think about it for a second a 5% drop in revenue might see a 2.5% drop in the wage bill so a backup like an Eboue and a reserve player perhaps. Someone is going to put them on TV and they will pay a mint to do it. This Sky money was an auction so it was bid up that high Sky wasn't bidding against themselves you knew that right? Other big clubs have big TV deals to right just because Celtic doesn't and EPL clubs do doesn't mean Barca, Madrid, Milan, Inter, Juve, Lyon, and Bayern all don't. That is on SPL and Celtic it isn't on the EPL (they all get it) or other big clubs your just acting like kid crying because everyone else has one and you don't think its fair. It's called economics of scale and capitalism if you don't like it move to Cuba.

4. Equal competing arena is a laugh when talk about Celtic and Rangers vs the SPL whats the 3rd highest wage bill in the league compared to those two, whats the third biggest stadium compared to those two? Sky didn't buy fans for Arsenal or give Arsenal a huge chunk of money more than the rest of the EPL clubs Graham and Wenger have built Arsenal into a big club and the board did there part by building an appropiate arena. Or can you twist that?

5. No Comment

6. Arsenal have been in the top flight of English Football the longest of any club and are one of the most successful in all of England period. Will see where Britney is in 75 years.


Ignorant people make ignorant comments, uninformed people make uninformed comments, stupid people...well you get the point if you are going to comment get informed

 

So would Arsenal and half the teams in EPL. What's your point? You're only agreeing the situation is out of control.
Love how you attempt to reframe the entire argument I made about ManUre into a financial one. It never was. Maybe you should read it again.
ManUre is a big team -- much bigger than Arsenal will ever be. They earned that status on their own and with or without Sky money it wouldn't change.

Sticking more words in my mouth. Like a typical arrogant English * that whose only argument revolves around "they must be jealous of our small * and horse-* queens."
None of this is even worth discussing since it's just a troll by you trying to change the argument.

I'd probably point at the massive increase in 97-98 season from 191m to 670m but it's continued to spiral from there, the latest being 2007 as you point out.
Arsenal are a decent club in England. I've never denied that. But as I'm sure you're aware, being decent != "big". Arsenals history can't even begin to compare to ManUre and Liverpuke.
Relative to money received by other EPL teams, Arsenal earned. Relative to money earned by teams in every other league, Arsenal did nothing to earn it. Not that you can understand this simple distinction. I'm sure I'll spend the next 10 posts explaining these 2 sentences.

OK, so because ESPN or some other megacorp would bid on it means Arsenal has earned it right? Yeah, ok. You guys sure like your auctions. Go Emirates!
What do Barca, Real, et. al. have to do with it? They've all earned their histories and great respect. Something that can't be said for Arsenal -- whose just a mercenary cup team when you get down to it.
Again back to the pathetic name-calling and English retarded "you must be jealous of everyone" *. Dipshit -- I've given respect where it's due. Arsenal just isn't due it. You can't deal with that so you keep trying to pigeonhole me.
Obviously I have no problem with Capitalism. It has a lot to do with Celtics' own success.

This after you rant on capitalism. SPL has been an equal field. Each club has had an equal opportunity to be as big as any other. Everyone has made their own place. If you don't like that, move to * Cuba.

I enjoy watching Britney Spears dance sometimes ... but I'd never call her a music artist. Could say a very similar thing about Arsenal, nice to watch but at the end of the day they're just a poor mans' Barca. Even Henry knows that.

Good for you. Equating avoiding relegation with success is just another reason Arsenal is not a big club.

If you're going to reply again, please make sure you actually read and understand what I've wrote first.

 

Arsenal have good relations with several clubs Barnet, Celta Vigo, Salamanaca to name a few. Honestly what bit of research did you do that told you Arsenal have no friends like that?

Fan base and passion amount or loyalty is not qunatifible in any F*cking way how can you prove the loyalty of Celtic fans compared to Arsenal fans? Really stupidest f*cking comment in the world. A dude in Kenya kills himself after Arsenal went out of the CL semis last year is that loyalty or is he just a plastic because he is in Kenya will you kill yourself if you get knocked out on Wednesday if not maybe your a plastic live and die by the team right what is the definition of passion? You have no clue about this so don't bother. I'm in Canada leave Uni early to catch games re-arrange my whole day to catch games am I plastic cause I'm not in England? Think man it can't be quantified whose to say your more passionate about Celtic more than Abou Marfo in Ghana is about Arsenal. Define passion, I'll say I have no passion but my definition is giving your arms and legs thats my definition I won't do it so I don't have passion do you have passion for Celtic if so prove it otherwise to me your not passionate about your club sell your kidney for money to give to the club. Just cause you goto a supporters club to watch game late at night thats nothing give an arm and a leg now thats something. See my point everyone has there own definition of passion when it involves them people show it in different varying ways.

Atmosphere I'll give you Arsenal play in expensive town and sell out every game corporations own a lot of seats and boxes the fans that create atmosphere out sung Celtic at their ground on Tuesday for a time simply put. You ever look at a Celtic jersey with that big Carling symbol on it your players like Arsenal players are walking billboards wait 20 years and every stadium will be sponsored Allianz in Munich is just another example. Just ignorant when your club run around everyone with a big billboard on there chest than say because some other club goes a bit further they are souless. People don't walk around with model stadiums on they were the Jersey thats the team the players change the pitch changes but the team is the jersey always stays. In North America thats what you represent and is holy in Europe they put sponsors on it so be it to each there own.

Money - Arsenal match day revenue alone is equal to Celtic total revenue. Throw in shirt sales bigger sponsorships for being in a bigger country and bigger TV deal for being in a bigger country and better results in the champions league of course it is bigger. Its an economy of scale mate more people = more money. It's not a confusing equation Sky isn't some evil entity to hurt SPL they pay more money because more people watch the EPL than the SPL its pretty simple. Barca and Madrid TV deal still dwarfs the EPL clubs so its not like they are getting some huge advantage over those clubs.

You have the European Cup granted it was 43 years ago but it is something Arsenal want the prestige starts to wear a little bit over time but it will always be something you have for sure and Arsenal want.

EPL teams in the UEFA cup do fairly well recently (odd finals usually a team in the quarters or at least a few in the round of 16) but you have to remember this is still a top footballing competition and EPL sends its 5th,6th and usually 7th place team while some countries send there 2nd place teams and then CL participants it's not like its a walk in the park.

Sky deal was won in an auction and worth ~45M a season Arsenal revenue is 190M England has 10x the population of Scotland

Just wanted everyone to see that for any future Arsenal owe all there money to Sky and if it wasn't them then other bidders would of paid a similar amount.

Money doesn't play football players do if it did Man City and Chelski would never lose a game. State that you think Celtic is a bigger club go for it doesn't matter there is no barometer for it. It's just looks like an inferiority complex to me.

 

You're just making our point for us. You're admitting Arsenals' acquired financial position HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR PERFORMANCE OR EVEN CLUB MANAGEMENT. It's down to simple economics. That's it.
If you think being in a high profile country, selling shirts to the bandwagon faithful, and regularly finishing 3rd or 4th makes you a big team -- then kudos to you. But you're not going to find many people who agree with that outside of Arsenal forums.

As far as I'm concerned money alone does not make a big team, and the end of the day that is all Arsenal is. A big pile of money.

 

Arsenal earned there status just as much as Man U it's pretty simple you tout Man U I point out before Sky came big as you said that Arsenal and ManU were on pretty much equal footing. You really have no arguement left. :bbpd:

 

And a bunch of trophies and European prominence but your right there is a big pile of money too. Your pretty daft eh Emirates wouldn't be sold out or even built and shirt sponsors wouldn't be big and the like if not for successes the fans that saw Arsenal win in the 30's aren't paying the bills any more new fans are born and usually drift to winning sides Celtic is a perfect example the name celtic didn't make them the biggest club in Scotland winning things did. Winning = Fans = Money = Winning understand now?

 

Knew you wouldn't be able to grasp this simple concept. When you are capable of understanding these 2 sentences you will know why your argument is full of *.

Relative to money received by other EPL teams, Arsenal earned. Relative to money earned by teams in every other league, Arsenal did nothing to earn it. Not that you can understand this simple distinction. I'm sure I'll spend the next 10 posts explaining these 2 sentences.

As you're so eager to point out, ManUre and Arsenal have had the same exact benefit of Sky money throughout. That means separating the 2 time periods is pointless domestically. It only goes to show how pathetic you are.
The same can be said of SPL, which is why -- within themselves, these leagues are perfectly fair competing environments.

Arsenals mediocre success in CL, which is the only thing that distinguishes them as a relevant club in the modern era, is purely down to being able to outspend the competition.
Being able to outspend foreign competition is, as you yourself have pointed out, down entirely to playing in England.

As for Arsenal not being a poor mans Barca. Barcas' stature dwarfs that of Arsenal in every way. Most of your players come to realize that in the end. Henry, Hleb, Flamini... they all know Arsenal is just a mercenary cup team. That's why they leave.
Don't mistake their inability to cut it at the next level for passion for Arsenal. If they had any passion they wouldn't have left so easily for money in the first place.

 

Glad you're starting to get it. Now, tell me, what has Arsenal won lately? Oh right, fuckall.

 

ok so now i have some figures here

this is the turnovers of arsenal and celtic

<table style="width: 228px; height: 359px;" class="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="presentation">2007/08
</td> <td class="presentation">183.301
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2006/07
</td> <td class="presentation">139.003
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2005/06
</td> <td class="presentation">132.112
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2004/05
</td> <td class="presentation">115.075
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2003/04
</td> <td class="presentation">115.056
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2002/03
</td> <td class="presentation">103.789
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2001/02
</td> <td class="presentation">90.602
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2000/01
</td> <td class="presentation">62.911
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1999/00
</td> <td class="presentation">61.260
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1998/99
</td> <td class="presentation">48.623
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1997/98
</td> <td class="presentation">40.391
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1996/97
</td> <td class="presentation">27.158
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1995/96
</td> <td class="presentation">20.975
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1994/95
</td> <td class="presentation">23.936
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1993/94
</td> <td class="presentation">21.472
</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table style="width: 257px; height: 288px;" class="presentation"><tbody><tr><td class="presentation">2007/08
</td> <td class="presentation">72.953
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2006/07
</td> <td class="presentation">75.237
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2005/06
</td> <td class="presentation">57.411
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2004/05
</td> <td class="presentation">62.168
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2003/04
</td> <td class="presentation">69.020
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2002/03
</td> <td class="presentation">60.569
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2001/02
</td> <td class="presentation">56.892
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">2000/01
</td> <td class="presentation">42.007
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1999/00
</td> <td class="presentation">38.579
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">- - -
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1994/95
</td> <td class="presentation">10.376
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> <td class="presentation">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="presentation">1993/94
</td> <td class="presentation">8.736
</td></tr></tbody></table>
just to complete mcnaka's point, just see arsenal's turnover rises sharply around 97/98 and 2001/2002

in the 90's you guys had won the league only in 90-91 and then directly in 97/98. the double was in 2001-2002.

 

I'd also point out, since inception of Premier League:

ManU titles: 11
Arsenal: 3
Chelski: 2
Blackburn: 1

CL Finals:
Real: 9 / 12
Milan: 7/ 11
Liverpool: 5/ 7
Bayern: 4/ 7
Ajax: 4/ 6
Barca: 3/ 6
ManUre: 3/ 4
Juventus: 2/ 7
Benfica: 2/ 7
Inter: 2/ 4
Porto: 2/ 2
Nottingham: 2/ 2
Marseille: 1/ 2
Steaua Bucaresti: 1/ 2
Hamburg: 1/ 2
Celtic: 1/ 2
Borussia Dortmund: 1/ 1
Red Star: 1/ 1
PSV: 1/ 1
Aston Villa: 1/ 1
Feyenoord: 1/ 1
Valencia: 0/ 2
Stade Reims: 0/ 2
***Arsenal***: 0/ 1

*** 16 clubs have been to 1 final with no success, including Malmo, Club Brugge, Borussia Monchengladbach, St Etienne, Leeds, Partizan, Panathinaikos, Eintracht Frankfurt, Fiorentina, AS Monaco, Bayer Leverkusen, AS Roma, Sampdoria, Chelski, Leeds.

Arsenal. Simply not a big club.

 

I thought it was obvious, bigger no, better players yes.