I don't think this changes anything.

To play devil’s advocate here, he went with 5 at the back, and more pragmatic against Barca and we also got thumped with 7 goals.

 

PSG that was I think? And said it in the interview after the game like he proved those wanting a bit of pragmatism wrong. My point about that game is we had 5 at the back aye, but we weren’t playing defensively, we barely put a tackle in that game, we had like 3 fouls if I remember right. We had 5 there, but it was just a numbers game that.

Cemented in my mind he just doesn’t understand defending that.

Case in point, the 2-1 Barca game, we subbed Lustig for Tony Watt, Commons finished that game at RB and despite that our defending was and the way we defended was far more defensive with a more attacking team and lineup than 5 at the back. Forster madness as well there but you get the point, it’s not a case of just throwing players on as ‘defenders’ there’s thought behind it. BR as an attacking thinker is exceptional, not so much the other side.

 

Don't forget that Lennon almost got something off Barca again in the game Broony was sent off. Frustrating the better teams can work.

 

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2019286--barcelona-vs-celtic/

It was Barca. Gamboa started and he certainly wasn't playing CM as the graphic on that page suggests.

I do think being more defensive could help us in games where we're not the favourites, and my main criticism of Tuesday night was our high defensive line, but I just wanted to bring it up that it can still lead to an absolute gubbing against the best sides.

 

I'm sure we tried it v PSG too, with KT and Forrest tucking in to make the 5..

But, aye a change of formation alone doesn't necessarily keep us solid..

 

I personally don’t think 5 at the back is the answer but we need more in midfield.

Especially players who are strong and fast

 

Different time and different set of players.

I don’t think 5 at the back is the answer either. 451 with Kuhn and Maeda playing slightly deeper, the midfield and defence dropping back as well.

But as always, the biggest thing we’re missing is a proper defensive midfielder.

Schmeichel
Johnston CCV Scales Valle
Kuhn Engels X McGregor Maeda
Kyogo

Stick a physical, disciplined defensive midfielder in there and that’s a team and set up more equipped to potentially cause an upset.

 

a loss to dortmund shouldnt really have changed anything ,getting absolutely pumped is the issue. we always find ourselves in a blind panic when up against a decent side ,thats when the stray passes and schoolboy errors occur .if anything the manner of that defeat could exacerbate the problem

 

If Rodgers was being honest and genuinely doesn't set us up any differently in Bergamo then for me it means he's putting himself before the team which is not on. Ala Vincent Kompany he's stubbornly sticking to a 'philosophy' to the detriment of the team hoping it means someone will hire him based on that philosophy, rather than altering his approach to suit what he's got.

 

Yeah my point is more it's not guaranteed to stop a heavy defeat, but hopefully it could help these results become less frequent.

 

With the personnel we have, I'd try something like this v Atalanta, sit deep and compact and try and counter..

Schmeichel
Johnston CCV Scales Valle
Engels McGregor Bernardo
Kuhn Hatate
Maeda​

 

We are in top form, dominating scottish football. Destroyed a team by 5-1 in the greatest competition on earth, sitting mid table in said competition. In great financial shape and looking to gear up our ambition.

I'll take that.

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It does change things somewhat I think.

No one expected us to win, but no one expected 7-1 either. We might have expected Rodgers to set up to try and overwhelm them in attack, but I don't think anyone anticipated that a) he wouldn't adapt when it failed, and b) he'd refuse to admit it didn't work after the game.

You're looking at the rest of that competition now and wondering how we go out and get results against some of those teams if that's our tactical approach. How do the players go out in subsequent games and have confidence in what they're doing after that game?

I think it changes the tone around our campaign and another big loss could well affect our domestic campaign as well. I don't think it will be as easy to brush off as all that.

 

​

We dominate league 2 level teams at home, beat the worst team in the competition, have some money in the bank (that seems to just sit there) and get repeatedly destroyed by teams outside our little Scottish world. Woop.

It's * football limbo.

 

Yes? Ee happen to play in this league. Is it not good that we are dominating and have the most exciting team in a long time?

Starting to spend 10-12 million on players.

Yes the result was pathetic but that was down to many things.

Doetmund played the best game for the season, scored 5 freak goals while our players put on 2/10 performance.

It hurts but lets not pretend that everything is dom and gloom. We have 3 PTS, we still have all the winnable ties in front of us.

I fully agree that we should change our approach but we all wanted us to "play our game" before the Dortmund game. No one was expecting this result mate.

Now everything is more clear than ever where we need to strengthen.

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The change I fear this may cause is the view the board take on recruitment now. They have spent a lot (relatively speaking) this window, with a view to improving our standing in Europe. They may well take the view that we could take 7-1 scuddings with £1-2m players, not the £6-12m players that were on the park, so why bother spending significantly again in January?

If we take another scudding against Atalanta, which is not beyond the realms of possibility, I can see them seriously thinking that way as even assuming we still get to the playoffs it's only another 1m euros plus gate money. Why push the boat out for that when we clearly aren't getting to the last 16 anyway?

 

Btw, not super confident but the RB Leipzig game is just so perfect to fix our reputation and pride. Another german side who will feel entitled to win on the back of us getting slaughtered in german media.

They will majorly underestimate us which I can understand, and I would not be shocked to see us get something from this game.

Get Valle up to speed and CCV back in.

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In terms of the dynamics of us getting out of the group I agree with the title of the thread. We were likely to be in a position where we had 3 points after what is our hardest and easiest fixture out of the way. This new league format makes it difficult to track where you are likely to finish but taking a look at our fixtures, all the teams that are about our level still have what I would call a decisive game to play against another.

For example I would say ours will be versus Club Brugge. If we beat them even losing the next two games and with ties against Dinamo Zagreb and Young Boys to come we will be in a strong position to make the top 24. However, failing to do so will likely mean we need two wins in those other game to make it.

Another good example is Sparta Prague v Brest both have had excellent starts but neither have played any of their pot 1 teams yet where you would expect them to get beat. They also play each other so one or both of them will lose ground on others that round of fixtures.

I think the way the fixtures have come out is pretty tough on us having our pot 1 & 2 away fixtures back to back followed by our Pot 1 and 2 home fixtures before both pot 3 and away pot 4 fixtures.

Essentially two games in we are where we were always likely to be, what we have blown is a good goal difference with taking a spanking.

The other thing is pot 1 teams like Madrid and Bayern getting beaten may work in our favour if it puts pressure on them to win their future games against teams we are likely to compete with for places.

I don’t hold much if any hope for Atalanta away but we need to sort ourselves out for Leipzig at home and Club Brugge at home. We need an absolute minimum 3 points from those two games but 4 would be a phenomenal result and set us up to have two cracks at likely securing a playoff place. It won’t be easy right enough as both are talented teams.

 

IMHO, the reason it all looks so bleak to you is that you are minutely analysing all the bad things (the exact number of goals we shipped; exactly how elite Dortmund are or aren't; exactly how much money we have in the bank; to what exact extent are Bratislava CL quality, and so on) and lumping all the good things together in a kind of timeless, unchanging box of "meh".

If we look at the good things in the same kind of detail as the bad, we can see real reasons for optimism. Here are a few examples:

1) We do, in fact, fairly regularly regularly put out Celtic sides that fail to beat teams like Bratislava. Under Ange, we either failed to beat or lost to: a poor Shakhtar Donestsk team (both games); Bodo Glimt (both games); Midtjylland (both games). Under Rodgers in his second stint: Feyenoord (away). Under Lenny in his second stint: Sparta Prague (both games), Ferencvaros. Under Ronny...

Bratislava are more than capable of beating some of the Celtic teams we've had to watch over the past decade and giving a tough game to most of the others; and yet we didn't just beat this team; we battered them.

2) We might always dominate teams domestically; but we don't always do it so convincingly or play such good football. In fact, we rarely do. This is the best football to watch that I can remember here.

3) We might still have a lot of money in the bank; but this summer we broke our transfer window... twice!

 

Ultimately we will be judged over 8 games and so far we've probably had one result a bit better than expected and one result worse than expected. But most people would expect 3 points.

Our inability to change really frustrates me. It's just blind arrogance to me to refuse to adapt. I don't really mind losing to better teams in Europe but I find it so disappointing that we continue to do the same thing time and time again. But if we win our home games we would have a successful campaign regardless of away results so it may not really matter.

It is a reminder though of the level we are really at though as sometimes we forget when we run over dross in Scotland every week.