Brendan Rodgers Discussion Thread

No point pretending games in hand etc. At the point we had played the same amount of game we was 7 points ahead. That's what I was saying. There wasn't a point were we had played the same and was these mythical 10/11 points ahead.

I know things should be better, but points tally proves we're doing about as good as usual. OK ange may have been on target to get more? He never. Thats all I can go on. He chucked it because he knew he was off to spurs. He stopped. He also had a considerably better team than rodgers.

Look I want rid of rodgers due to his boring eye gouging football, but let's not pretend this sevco team wouldn't be challenging us in a title race near every year with the points tally they've managed and putting the blame squarely on a manager that's got a team no better than * hearts a decent return of points. If he never had anges team ripped apart, or atleast got some decent replacements we'd be in a much better position. I'm not blaming him, this is down to the shocking recruitment. I'm glad he's taking the pressure of the guys. It's what they need to atleast attempt a salvage job.

 

I just highlighted that.

8 March 10 2023: Celtic beat Hearts 3-1. Having played 28 games we were on 79 points. Sevco that samer night beat Hibs, and are on 70 points from 28 games.

This season we are on 68 points from 29 games. Sevco are are 70 points from 29 games. So Sevco are pretty much the same level as they were this same point of last season. We are 9 points worse off having played 1 game more.

Where the season ended, it's easy to clock off a little at the end once the title has been wrapped up. but there was none of that UNTIL the league was wrapped up. That is a big, big difference. Sevco closed the gap after the split when wee had already won the title, but the competitive aspect of the title race was already done and dusted before then.

 

Your comparing a treble winning side that never had the entire spine and heart ripped out of it. Compare it to anges first season. That would be more just.

 

Ah stats, so easy to misinterpret and use to excuse or justify a weak argument when taken without context ignoring other critical human factors such as confidence, momentum, the opposition, most recent data etc.
Football is possibly the sport with the weakest statistical relationship or correlation between the data and a teams performance, result or direction.

Trust what you see.
The majority see current state for what it is - a poor, declining, low on character team with a struggling board and manager.
Add to that the criminal under utilisation of available resources that if used effectively would negate any need for this discussion.
Stats should only ever be there to compliment the subjective and what you see, feel and know.

 

I did that also. That first Ange season we were virtually identical to where we are this seaosn in terms of points, but momentum is completely different. That 2021/22 was after we had a * poor start and were on just 10 points after the first 7 games of the season (P7 W3 D1 L3). But once thingsd started to click we never looked back, took the league lead on 2 Feb 2022 and went on to win the league from there.

This season we were on 19 after the first 7 games (P7 W6 D1 L0), that is a big difference for a start.

Between that start 10 points in 21/22, compared to 19 in 2023/24) as a beginning point to where we were at the same point in March 2022 we had made up 63 points from the 23 games in 21/22.

This season in the same period (after 7 games until now) we have made up 49 points from the next 22 games. That is a huge swing away in momentum.

This is highlighted especially since the November International break we have leaked 15 points (2 losses v Hearts, a loss and a draw v Killie, and draws also with Motherwell (who hadn't won in 9 league games to that point) and Aberdeen (who were managerless at that point), so bother were badly out of form when we dropped points to them. That is a sickening amount of points we have hemorrhaged since the November break.

 

That again goes to show the importance of a January window. Ange picked up 3 players, injury crises stopped and we went on a run.

Opposite this time. We got * all, our CB, best midfielder (that helped ange turn it around in the 3-0 momentum swing) and also now captain all injured. So again we're pointing at recruitment differences for the upturn vs downturn.

So i can't fully blame Rodgers, the board and recruitment team take most the blame. Probably the reason they've all been shown the door early as to not repeat this * show.

Now a new manager, that doesn't play boring football needs brought in, the new recruitment staff should be in and hopefully means we'll kick on. Until then though we really do need to support the team. Really get behind them, no moans n groans. Lift the pressure they feel and the results will flow imo

 

But you're comparing this team with peak Ange, which is a bit misleading. That was not a normal standard for Celtic. Compared to typical Celtic seasons, we're roughly in the middle of the pack and the points tally this Rangers team have accumulated would see them competing most years. For example, we were on 70 points after 29 games in Ange's first season. That's just 2 points ahead of the current team and exactly the same as the current Hun team.

 

Gordon Strachan won the league with 75 points

 

So now you're saying it's all due to the poor January window? All morning your point has been about the points being the comparable with Ange. Now, it's the window.

BR inherited a treble winning squad minus 4 players. Admittedly, having Abada, Hatate and CCV miss pretty substantial chunks of the season is not great, but Ange had issues like that also, even in his first season, where GG missed a large chunk of the first half while Kyogo missed a chunk of the second half of that first season. Not something that can easily be missed.

I'm not saying that the January window wasn't disappointing - it was. No one is debating that.

But remember how BR was supposed to be this amazing coach, who could get the best out of players, 'added years to Scott Brown, got the best out of James Forrest', et al... is there a single player who is undeniably a better player because of BR this season compared to last? MO'R arguably, but it wasn't like he was a dud that has come good. Scales' improvement I would say is more due to the time on loan at Aberdeen than it has been anything to do with Rodgers' coaching. Meanwhile, we have seen regression in the likes of Kyogo, AJ & Taylor, etc.

What young players has he really brought through from the academy and intergrated into the first team set up? The young fella, Kelly, whop came on for CalMac in the Dundee game is pretty much it. So much for his 'coaching'.

But all those signings last summer, BR arrived with a 3 yr contract - something that only he had previously been given and that was after his initial 1 year rolling deal. There is no way he would've agreed to return without having had significant say-so on signings and budget written into that contract, despite having a * poor record in the transfer market, irrespective of being large or small, with a couple of exceptions his overall record at Liverpool, Celtic or Leicester is pretty underwhelming, to say the least.

Considering how much of a song and dance that whole issue was and cited as the reason why he left the first time, there is no way he would've returned without having made sure that provisions stipulating his assured authority in this area, so it's not like he gets a pass on the bad transfer windows as much as some of those who were shifted. He might be frustrated by it but that's the truth, and while he doesnt deserve the whole enchilada of blame, he deserves a fair slice of it, none the less.

 

Going on previous discussions, I reckon the answer I'll get is that Ange inherited a s***show, which ignores the fact that Rodgers was welcomed with 2 s***show windows and the fact that I'm not just talking about that 1 season. There are lots of examples of seasons with this kind of points total, it's fairly typical.

 

4 players is quite a lot when it includes key players like Jota, Starfelt and Mooy! That's almost a 3rd of the first-choice outfielders.

Indeed and his points total after 29 games that season reflected that, being only 2 more than out current total.

 

Yes, if you read on, you would see that I made a point about all of that in my subsequent post that compared Ange's first seaosn to this one, in whihc took into account the relative starts to the season, the shifts in momentum etc.

But just to bullet point it.

After 7 games...

21/22 - 10 points (P7 W3 D1 L3)
22/24 - 19 points (P7 W6 D1 L0)

From 8th game onwards to now (March 10 in 2022 & March 10 in 2024)
21/22 - 62 points from 23 games.
23/24 - 49 points from 22 games.

That iundicates how much of a shift in momentum that picked up in Ange's first season after the rocky start, compared to how much has been hemorrhaged this season over that same period, and especially since the November Internbational window, as since then we have lost twice to Hearts, a loss and a draw to Killie, draws against Motherwell (who hadn't won in 9 games before the draw) and Aberdeen (who were managerless at the time). That is 15 points right there dropped.

 

Momentum that came from being backed with key signings, at least in the first 2 windows.

Edit: I mean just look at some of the lineups during that period where we lost momentum!

 

Not debating that they were not insignificant losses, but Ange similiarly had those issues that first seaosn. How much of the first season were we playing with a RB at LB? GG missed a huge chunk of the first half of the seaosn and Kyogo missed a fair bit of the second half, and yet we were still winning.

And yes, the overall points total may be the same but you've missed my point about the significant difference in momentum, going from a poor start in 2021/22 before things clicked into gear, compared with starting strong as far as results go if not performances, and those results becoming increasingly inconsistent as this seaosn has progressed.

 

Yeah, we had a pretty scratchy period that first Nov/Dec... but you know what? We kept winning nearly all of those games. Admittedly a large part of that rested on individual slices of Rogic brilliance, but the point being, we found a way and it kept the momentum going til we got to that January window.

 

Look at the backing he had in those first two windows that allowed him to build that momentum andf look at some of the horrific lineups Rodgers had to play during the period when we lost momentum.

Christ, mate, at times we were playing Forrest early in the season and back lines of Ralston Scales Welsh and Bernabei more recently. I really think you aren't taking that seriously enough.

 

It's also worth remembering that Ange is the best manager we've seen here, arguably since Stein; but certainly in my time watching Celtic. No one thinks Rodgers is as good as Ange; but that's not really the question.

 

The momentum came from Ange's managerial and motivational skills. The windows helped, of course they did, but it's because Ange identified players or signed off on players who fit his philosophy, acting in a timely manner (see how Spurs' have seemingly changed in that regard too).

Poor Brendan not being "backed" in January. Ange brought in Hatate and O'Riley for a combined £2.9 million. Maeda came in on loan.

Rodgers bought Kuhn for £2.8 million, and don't tell me he didn't want him. All the quotes pre and post January suggest otherwise.

Rodgers gets away with absolutely murder at times. It's like he hypnotises the support or something, convinces them he's an elite manager but always has an excuse when things are going badly. The sad thing is, most buy it!

 

It's not an either/or. Ange's skills were necessary, so was the backing.

Your comment about backing can't be serious. Can anyone seriously doubt that Rodgers has been backed horrifically? Lawwell and the head scout literally lost their job over this.

 

Oh, I'm taking it very seriously. I am as frustrated as anyone is at what has been going on this seaosn, but my point all along has been about correctly identifying and apportioning responsibility here.

People all seem to be giving Rodgers a pass for the transfer dealings, when there is no way he would've agreed to come back to Celtic, especially considering how much of a stink he kicked up the first time before he left about this very same issue. Can you honestly tell me that between, him, his agrent, lawyers etc that negotiated his 3 YEAR contract, that they would've omitted some assurances in writing and set in stone regarding his authority concerning transfer budgets and signings etc?

Rodgers has a pretty underwhelming record in the transfer market, irrespective of the size of the kittys he has been given. There have been the occasional success but these are seriously and significantly outweighed, and it's not just at Celtic. It is th same when you look back at his time at Liverpool and subsequently also at Leicester.

But because he has the platform as manager, just like with the whole recent episode of blaming VAR to try to misdirect attention from his own shortcomings as a tactician, it's an extension of the same thing.

My point all along has been, don't listen to what Rodgers says, as he just cannot be believed. Rather judge on what he actually does... And it's really not a whole lot. I keep hoping and waiting and wanting him to prove me wrong, because I want Celtic to win and perform as we know they can and I will gladly eat my share of humble pie, but on all the evidence and critical examination, it leads to a pretty damning conclusion.