Neil Lennon

So you're saying we still finish 1st in the EL Group last season with Bain, Gordon or Barkas in goal instead?

 

What have they got to do with it? You are talking about Brown, and you have already admitted to me that he played a part in our success last season so that will do me.

Enjoy.

 

Random was trying to insinuate that somehow without Brown we don't top our EL Group last season, whereas Forster was the biggest reason & influence as to why we topped it.

 

Yeah, it's pretty obvious to me that Forster was the main reason we won the group last year and qualified for the last 16 in 2012. I mean, we were decent, but for large periods in games were under the cosh, had it not been for the heroics of Forster 3 points would have turned into 0.

Anything else is selective memory, imo.

 

@RogicHasMagicToes

Fair enough I retract the word 'chose' but no one forced his hand to do that except for him,...

Sorry for accusing you of bad faith. I shouldn't have done that. You obviously didn't mean it literally and it's one of those rhetorical tricks most of us use from time to time. I'm sure if you searched my post history, you could probably find examples of me doing it too. However, although I apologise for the accusation, yeah, I'm still just not dealing with that kind of thing in a post that long, because it makes answering very time consuming. Thank you for reposting without it.

...it just still angers me...

I get that. I didn't defend him that night. It wasn't his best season last year. However, overall, he still had a decent season. If you look at what we achieved, I genuinely would class it as an extremely successful season and Broony was a big part of that.

He started the majority of games last season on reputation & status within the squad, not on ability in comparison with others

I don't agree. Remember that we didn't sign Soro until halfway through the season. We needed Broony.

Forster is the very reason we're going for a Quadruple Treble on Sunday & he was also the biggest reason we topped our EL Group last season.

He's the biggest reason. There's no doubt. It's heartbreaking that he didn't stay. Who knows where we'd be in Europe if he had stayed and I'm * sure we'd not be so far behind in the league. In the end, it's gotten so that I can't even be bothered typing "Forster probably saves that" in match threads anymore. It's still true, but it gets to be annoying for everyone after a while.

Having said that, he's not the only reason. The outfield players also did their jobs and Broony was a part of that.

In the end, Broony's spectacular seasons were obviously before, in his prime. Already by last year, he was no longer the player the team was built around (by then it was McGregor). All I am showing you here is that he did a more than competent job last year and therefore was worth the contract extension. Where he earned loyalty from us is not last year, it's when he showed us loyalty in his prime.

The extension was convenient for both parties; turning down the EPL in his prime is a different thing altogether.

So why did I bring last year into it at all? last year is relevant for the point about fairness (which is actually more important than the point about loyalty). I repeat that Lenny is not the first manager to decide that "The players that got us to the final deserve to play in it" and he won't be the last. As many have said, I can see both sides of this one; but it's a legitimate decision from Lenny. It's not some moment of madness on his part.

Given his situation, it's also a brave decision from Lenny, because it's absolutely him (and not Broony) who is responsible for it. He knows he has to win.

 

You guys need to review the difference between "the biggest reason" and "the only reason". Naka and Boruc were the biggest reason we qualified from our CL group twice undere Strachan, but if every other player hadn't been disciplined and worked their arses off, Naka and Boruc's match-winning brilliance would have counted for nothing.

 

Yes we didn't sign Soro until January but a great midfield trio had already been established under Brendan the season previously when Brown was out injured for around three months, the CalMac/Christie/Rogic MF was performing terrifically well, that MF started & won big games together including at home to Leipzig, away to Rosenborg & in the cup final against Aberdeen, whilst also dishing out a 6-0 pumping to St Johnstone away, 5-1 at home to Killie, 5-0 at home to Hearts etc, it was a MF that played great football as well as got some great results, Lenny refused to try that MF combination even once, because of his stubborn refusal to drop Brown. So we didn't need Brown as you say we did because we had other midfield combination options that Lenny refused to utilize.

I genuinely think that his Cluj brain fart was reason enough as to why he should have never got that contract. Also, what is this rejecting an EPL club moment of loyalty you're always mentioning from Brown? Are you talking about the season he was having a shocker (along with many others) under Mowbray when Newcastle were interested? It's hardly as if he was in a moment like Wanyama, Van Dijk, Dembele or even Tierney was it? Players who proved they were a cut above at the top level in Europe consistently, something imo Brown has never proven for us in his time in Europe for multiple seasons in a row, even in his prime. His best season individually in Europe for me was the Invincible season when he was past his prime & sell on value.

I wrote biggest reason

 

Yes we didn't sign Soro until January but a great midfield trio had already been established under Brendan the season previously when Brown was out injured for around three months, the CalMac/Christie/Rogic MF was performing terrifically well.

This is a fair point actually. Nevertheless, the manager chose to use him- rightly or wrongly- for a successful season. The point is that there was the perception that we needed him (again, rightly or wrongly), it still wasn't us doing him a favour (which was your original claim).

It's hardly as if he was in a moment like Wanyama, Van Dijk, Dembele or even Tierney was it?

Whether he was good enough to have gone to Arsenal or not, I don't actually know (Rodgers said he could have walked into his Liverpool team, but I no longer necessarily believe the things Rodgers said); but clubs like Southampton were definitely not beyond him. Compare Armstrong * off down there at the first opportunity. There's no getting away from the fact that Broony showed us loyalty.

something imo Brown has never proven for us in his time in Europe for multiple seasons in a row, even in his prime.

You are just plain wrong there, mate. Broony was consistently a standout in Europe for a long time until (sadly) the last couple of seasons. The first time I really saw his importance was Benfica at CP under Lenny; but he was definitely doing it before I finally saw it.

I wrote biggest reason

But in the context of what you were replying to (my pointing out that Broony played a role) and also in your post responding to Mando, your clear implication is that Forster was all that mattered. Your point doesn't even make sense (i.e. it would be a complete non sequitur) if you weren't implying that.

 

This is a fair point actually. Nevertheless, the manager chose to use him- rightly or wrongly- for a successful season. The point is that there was the perception that we needed him (again, rightly or wrongly), it still wasn't us doing him a favour (which was your original claim).

You say successful season but making the CL is the biggest objective every season alongside winning the league & we failed to qualify for that largely because of Brown? We did do him a favor mate because he was off to Australia (by his own admission), one of the worst leagues in world football without that new contract. What * me off most about him staying was that I knew the CalMac/Christie/Rogic MF was finished the moment he signed it & that we wouldn't get to see it flourish further, especially under Lenny who has a personal friendship with Brown off the pitch which skews his judgment in regards to his selection. In fact he froze Rogic out the team so much last season to keep his mate in the team at his expense that he nearly sold him in the Summer to Dubai. Who knows what we could have achieved with a CalMac/Christie/Rogic MF instead last season, maybe we would have made the CL, maybe we'd have pumped the huns in the cup final (instead of putting in an insipid performance) & at Celtic Park, maybe we'd have got past Copenhagen, we'll never know now.

Whether he was good enough to have gone to Arsenal or not, I don't actually know (Rodgers said he could have walked into his Liverpool team, but I no longer necessarily believe the things Rodgers said); but clubs like Southampton were definitely not beyond him. Compare Armstrong * off down there at the first opportunity. There's no getting away from the fact that Broony showed us loyalty.

Mate in Browns prime Arsenal were a team full of technical wizards in MF, even their CDMs (players like Diaby, Song etc) were technically top drawer in possession & tremendous passers, that's something Brown has never been blessed with. As you say Brendan spouts loads of *, he also said Jack Hendry could be the foundation of a successful Scotland team, Armstrong has done decent down there because he's technically efficient in possession. So when was this display of loyalty shown by Brown & what EPL teams did he turn down that showed serious interest in him & when? Only time I can remember is Newcastle under Mowbray but he was having a very poor season so I don't see that as loyalty hence why I mentioned the examples of Van Dijk, Dembele, Wanyama & Tierney when they were enquired about for performing at a top drawer level in Europe against top teams consistently.

You are just plain wrong there, mate. Broony was consistently a standout in Europe for a long time until (sadly) the last couple of seasons. The first time I really saw his importance was Benfica at CP under Lenny; but he was definitely doing it before I finally saw it.

Sorry I completely disagree with that, although I'm 28 & only really remember his European performances from Braga/Utrecht onwards in Lenny's first full season as manager, can't remember his specific European performances under Strachan & Mowbray. Although I do agree that he was exceptional that night against Benfica in the 0-0 game alongside Wanyama where he was tenacious & won back possession multiple times, only two other stand out performances against decent opposition I can remember from him were Fenerbache at home under Ronny & Man City at home under Brendan, besides that I can't think of many more. I know you'd probably say Lazio but I watched those two games again during lockdown & he made a high number of basic errors, gifting them possession under little pressure in dangerous areas of the pitch in which they nearly scored from in both games.

But in the context of what you were replying to (my pointing out that Broony played a role) and also in your post responding to Mando, your clear implication is that Forster was all that mattered. Your point doesn't even make sense (i.e. it would be a complete non sequitur) if you weren't implying that.

Brown played his part in finishing top of the group, that's fair enough but my overall point was that the team still gave up a lot of goal scoring chances to the opposition which he has to take huge responsibility towards being the CDM in charge of shielding the defence, had we had any of Gordon/Bain/Barkas start the first five EL games last season then we wouldn't have got out the group, hence Forster being the main/biggest reason as to why we finished top of the group. Basically my point is with or without Brown in MF we still top that group last season, look at the difference this season in Europe with no Forster & Brown still starting, tells its own story.

 

Was gonae get Scott Brown's biography for my Christmas but I don't think I'll bother now.

 

Think I'm gonna 'swerve' this thread, oh ya 'dancer' , what an idea

 

Can you two just * and get it over with

 

No argument from me if he's willing.

 

There goes any chance of Allardyce.

 

You say successful season but making the CL is the biggest objective every season alongside winning the league & we failed to qualify for that largely because of Brown

You keep coming back to that one moment, which is odd given I conceded it straight away.
It's true, but honestly: a treble and winning our EL group is a very, very successful season. This is like the 3rd time I've made this point.

Who knows what we could have achieved with a CalMac/Christie/Rogic MF instead last season

Again, I already conceded you have a fair point there. For the second time, I will limit myself to the point that we gave him an extension because we perceived the need rightly or wrongly (you can see that this is so from the fact that we played him) and not as a favour or something. I could now go on to say something about the value of his experience in the squad, his leadership, etc; but that would just give you an excuse to extend the argument, because it's actually irrelevant: we believed we needed him and we signed a contract for that reason.
Look at it this way: if I buy an iPad because I think I'll need it, it's obviously not to do Apple a favour- whether or not it later turns i needed it.

Mate in Browns prime Arsenal were a team full of technical wizards in MF

Armstrong * off to Southampton at the first opportunity. It's more money and a better league. Broony in his prime was better than Armstrong. Ironically what I said about Arsenal was to demonstrate that you don't actually need to posit interest from big clubs like Arsenal (as was the case for Tierney) to see that Broony showed loyalty.

Sorry I completely disagree with that

OK. Well most people on here will have seen him in Europe over the years and can make their own decision on that.

I know you'd probably say Lazio

This gives me the chance to clarify something important: why would I say Lazio? My point was explicitly about Broony when he was right up there, not last year when the decline had already started. I think I've been pretty clear about that several times. I feel I've also been pretty clear in the last post about why I mentioned last year at all. Last year he played his part well enough, but he certainly wasn't the main man in Europe by then. I remember his errors too.

I think we're done here. Everything that needs to be said has been said and folk can judge for themselves.

 

Not what we need at all.

 

War and Peace is an easier read than the last couple of pages in here.

 

I love Tolstoy.

 

Livi 2 up against Ross County, even with a a playing as * as we were that day, we should have never lost

 

Biggest reason doesn’t mean only reason, for instance, Ntcham had a massive part in it.