Where does Jimmy Johnstone Rank Among The Worlds Greatest Players?

The worst of the lot is probably that Bobby Lennox only got 10 caps.

Willie Johnston of the huns got over double the caps of Lennox.

Willie Johnston played for Rangers from 1964-1972 and then 1980-1982. 11 seasons, and never won the League. He won the Scottish Cup in 1966 and the Cup Winners Cup in 1972 and the League Cup in 1965 and 1971. 4 Trophies, thats how good he was played over 400 games for them over 11 seasons and won 4 trophies.

Yet he got double the Caps of Bobby Lennox who won 11 League Titles, 1 European Cup, 8 Scottish Cups and 5 League Cups.

The two of them were basically the exact same style of players too fast left-wingers.

Out the lot thats probably the worst one.

Even when you compare their big games records:

LENNOX
15 Goals V Rangers in 51 games
14 European Goals
3 Goals in 10 Caps for Scotland

JOHNSTON
8 goals V Celtic in 39 games
8 European goals
0 goals in 21 Caps for Scotland

Bobby Lennox should have got atleast 40 caps.

Willie Johnston's best season at the Huns was 1969, he scored 29 goals in 50 games. That same season Bobby Lennox scored 30 goals in 47 games. Willie Johnston won heehaw and Lennox won the Treble lol

 

Again if you go and take a more detailed look at the games back then and not rely on old stories, thrice removed, it might look a little different.

Henderson was in a winning Rangers team long before JJ was a regular for us, so guess what, he played for Scotland. Henderson picked up 22 (out of his 30 caps) before Stein came to Celtic and turned JJ around (England game 1966). Up to that point JJ only had 3 caps, yet from then on he picked up 20 more caps and Henderson only played 8 more times for Scotland, and one of those caps was a game that he moved to LW so JJ could play on the right

As for Jardine most people accept him as a very good FB and were probably quite happy that McGrain was so good that we could end up with one of the best FB partnerships of the 1974 wC. I wonder how many people complained when Eddie McCreadie switched to RB so Gemmell could play on the left?

 

That's a little simplistic isn't it? But if it isn't;

Goerge Niven, Rangers goalkeeper won five [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_football_champions"]List of Scottish football champions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame], two [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Cup"]Scottish Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame], one [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_League_Cup"]Scottish League Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame], four [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Cup"]Glasgow Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] and three Charity Cups...ZERO caps.

Frank Haffey...two caps

 

What is your angle here Port boy?

The fact is Celtic players were often overlooked for Scotland caps, and the ones that did get caps were often booed by the home support.

It's documented, it's been said by some of the players themselves.

I have no idea what it is you are trying to do in here.

 

He obviously know more than Jock, who said at the time he was quite happy for Celtic players to be over looked as it meant he didnt have to worry about them returning with injuries, also the big man said he over looked his players for the same reason, when he was part time Scotland manager whilst winning big cups and leagues.

 

Henderson only had 12 caps before Stein joined Celtic.

When Stein joined Celtic Jinky had 15 goals in 83 games for Celtic and 2 Caps for Scotland. Henderson had 17 goals in 148 games for Rangers and 12 Caps for Scotland.

So from then on Jinky got 21 caps and Henderson got 17.

In Steins first season at Celtic Jinky scored 14 goals in 54 games for us and Henderson only scord 4 goals in 40 games at Rangers. Jinky out performed him every season from 1963 forward.

From 1963-1968

Jinky scored 55 goals in 233 games for Celtic and only got 6 caps for Scotland. Henderson scored 30 goals in 194 games for Rangers and got 17 caps for Scotland.

 

No angle, I just don't buy into the "celtic players don't get capped" stuff. It doesn't bare up to scrutiny, as you say, "it's documented".

 

It is fair to say that over the generations the relationship between the Celtic support and the Scotland team has at times been as prickly as a thistle.

Despite attempts by others to claim otherwise, no club has been as supportive of the national team as the Bhoys. No rational person can deny Celtic has served Scotland well. But Scotland has not always served Celtic well. Indeed at times you have to wonder if the Scotland team would prefer an average player from anywhere else rather than a good or great player from Celtic.

There is no doubt that the seven caps won by the legendary James McGrory were insultingly scant reward for such a phenomenal forward. While the great Hughie Gallacher would provide tough competition in the early years of McGrory’s career the Celtic man was for many seasons unquestionably the outstanding Scottish centre-forward.

McGrory was the supreme goal scoring talent of the age. His ability to put the ball in the net was unrivalled. He was a world class talent and a model professional. Yet the man whose late winner against England in 1933 gave birth to the famed ‘Hampden Roar’ was frequently overlooked in favour of men who were simply not in his class. The ever humble McGrory was too modest to ever question the motives of selectors but he would not have been surprised when other Celts suffered similar injustice at the hands of Scotland selectors and managers.

Parkhead and Scotland skipper Bobby Evans enjoyed a lengthy career and although his total of 48 caps appear to be a significant amount the reality is that it could have been double that amount. But perhaps the starkest evidence of this inexplicable reluctance to select Celtic players can be found in the cases of Billy McNeill, Jimmy Johnstone and Bobby Lennox.

All three men represented their country on many occasions but like McGrory these caps are a woefully insignificant representation of their outstanding qualities. Particularly so when you compare them to the international honours received by players significantly less gifted.

A strong and imperious centre-half McNeill was a natural leader who had magnificently marshalled the Celtic defence against the very best in Europe. Johnstone was a unique talent, a tiny terror who struck fear into any defence and was without any doubt among the most gifted players in the game. Lennox was blessed with devastating pace, great touch and an eye for goal. Equally effective out wide or through the middle he would have walked into any squad in the world.

McNeill spent his entire career lifting silverware and his influence was omnipresent as Celtic dominated Scottish football and climbed the heights of the European game. In terms of ability, leadership and ability Ron McKinnon, McNeill’s Rangers counterpart during this period, was over-shadowed in every department by Cesar. Yet during this period of direct competition McNeill won 13 Scotland caps to McKinnon’s 28. It really should be a case for the X-Files. Johnstone and Lennox could tell similar stories.

Indeed while Celtic’s all conquering Lisbon Lions side won a combined total won 114 caps the Rangers side that lost the ECWC final the same season would win 155 caps.

Being selected however was not the only issue for Jimmy Johnstone. He and fellow Celts like Davie Hay also found themselves targeted by a large section of the Scotland support. They would be booed and heckled from the opening minutes of a game. Frequently such abuse would originate from the traditional Rangers End of Hampden and the demand would be for these Celts to be replaced by a Ranger off the substitute’s bench.

Kenny Dalglish was another who suffered at the hands of a seemingly anti-Celtic bias. Having quickly established himself as a Scotland regular Dalglish was on course to beat the record for successive Scotland appearances held by Rangers’ George Young. But on the eve of the game which would have seen Kenny capped for a record breaking 34th time he was dropped without explanation.

Kenny was recalled for the next match and would go on to beat Young’s record. By then though he was, significantly, no longer Dalglish of Celtic but Dalglish of Liverpool

Ironically, while few clubs have served the Scotland cause as faithfully as Celtic the same cannot be said of the Ibrox club – the self-styled Scottish institution. The poison of sectarianism wasn’t the only legacy left by Bill Struth. In the days when the annual Scotland V England clash preceded the Scottish Cup final the Rangers manager, eager to rest key men, would regularly order his players to withdraw from international duty. Struth would ease the blow for players eager to represent their country by ensuring they would be paid for their unpatriotic actions.

Graham Souness may have ditched Struth’s sectarian employment policy but – as Ally McCoist has testified – he thought nothing of using the excuse of a vague and imagined injury to withdraw perfectly fit players from Scotland duty. Judging by the action of the current Rangers set up both McCoist and Walter Smith obviously learnt well from Souness.

Yet while Celtic were slaughtered by the Scottish press in 2006 for making players unavailable for the post-season Kirren Cup in Japan the same media has been noticeably subdued in commenting on Rangers’ long history of neglect towards their national team.

Of course in recent years the paucity of talent from Scotland means that the national team can no longer afford to ignore Celtic players. But history means that for some Scottish followers of the Hoops their support for the national side will always be tainted by a sense that they are not as welcome as they should be.

 

I said the England game in the autumn of 1966 as the turning point. JJ didn't become a world beater the day after Stein walked in the door

 

I can answer most of those, but the wife is dragging me out.

Back soon.

 

Not really before then Jinky had scored in a Cup final against the Huns, played in the Cup Winners Cup semis twice - in 1964 and 1966 and had 5 European goals to his name. Fair enough he might only still have been 21 but he'd played almost 150 games for Celtic. Henderson at the time only had 2 European goals and the furhest he'd got was the European Cup quarters.

It's not like Jinky had barely kicked a ball or that, he'd been playing better than Henderson for 3 years by then.

From 1963 when Jinky started playing regularly until 1966, Jinky scored 28 goals in 136 games for Celtic and Henderson only got 14 goals in 122 games for Rangers. Again thats just goals doesnt mean much but Jinky had also reached the Cup winners Cup semis twice with Celtic, Henderson had only reached the European Cup quarters once.

 

I just wish I had seen him play, just missed him...

Difficult to compare players, everyone has their opinion in terms of individual brilliance he's the best Scotland has produced, in terms of achievements in the game Kenny Dalglish probably just beats him.. Glad they both played for us..

On the World Stage I just think the World Cup is the ultimate stage so as a Scotsman........

 

Ok first of all, can we discard with team achievements, because if we don't then I'll mention how in the 1964-65 season we finished 8th, which would leave people wondering why a 20 year old RW from the 8th best team in Scotland is on the national team.

Second can we just leave out opinion, because most supporters of most clubs have a hard time being objective about these sort of things. Again it might make people wonder why if "he'd been playing better than Henderson for 3 years" did Stein drop him for 5 out of his first 6 league games and why after the s/f game against Motherwell he was dropped for the replay and final.

Finally if you're going to use personal stats could you try and judge both players with the same stats? Sure Johnstone played 136 games for Celtic but you counted all the games he played (league, SC, LC and Europe), with Henderson you only gave his league games, so now his games played climbs to 189, or if you prefer Johnstone falls to 85 league games.

 

Don't ruin a good theory ffs,lets just pretend that all those Rangers players back then sucked.
Oh and what about Jim Forrest.

 

Jim Forrest scored 57 goals in 1964/65 and he got 5 caps,you know why,Scotland had players like Alan Galzean,Dennis Law,Ian St John etc,I think Steve Chalmers got more caps than Forrest.

 

I'm not really that crazy at typing so I might give this a go in installments. here goes.

So lets start off with some question, was Jim McGrory the best goalscorer in Scotland every year he played? How often was he the top goal scorer in Scotland? If another play or players scored more goals than him in any given season should they feel aggrieved at not being capped, aren't they the "inform" player? And finally if I give you a list of half a dozen players can you tell me who will be the best goal scorer out of the bunch in 12 years time?

So McGrory finally broke into the Celtic team during the 1924-25 season he played 25 games and scored 17 goals. Devlin was top scorer with 33 goals and Scotland won all 3 internationals with Gallacher scoring 5 goals. Should McGrory be capped? Ah, no.

1925-26, McGrory played 37 games scored 35 goals, but Devlin was still the top scorer with 40 goals. Scotland again won all 3 games and Gallacher scored 3 goals. Should McGrory have more caps? Close but no.

1926-27, McGrory played 33, scored 48(!), top scorer. This is were it gets interesting. Scotland beat Ireland and wales but we lost to England, Gallacher had only scored 1 goal. Should McGrory have more caps? Even closer, but no, we had won the first two games and only mind readers would have known we would lose to the English, so why change a winning team?

1927-28, McGrory played 36 games, scored 47(!!), top scorer again. In the first international Gallacher scored but we drew with Wales, so Gallacher out, last years top scorer in, McGrory gets his first cap against Ireland. We LOSE for the first time in 9 years and only the 3rd time in 40 games, he doesn't score. Gallacher comes back against he doesn't score but we win.

1928-29, McGrory must be injured 'cus he only plays in 21 games, scores 21 goals. Morrison was top scorer with 43 and Battles had 31. Scotland again won all 3 games and Gallacher scored 7 goals. At the end of the season Scotland went on a tour with a St Mirren player and a Rangers player, they won 2 and drew 1. Should McGrory have more caps? No.

1929-30, McGrory only plays 26 games(injuries?), scores 32 goals. Yorston is top scorer with 38. Scotland won the first 2 games and Gallacher scored 4 goals but he must have been injured for the England game and the Rangers player from the summer tour came in, he scored 2 but Scotland lost, he finished with 3 caps, 3 goals and never played for Scotland again. Should McGrory be capped? Not really.

1930-31, McGrory played 29 games(injuries?), scored 36 goals, but Battles was top scorer with 44 (in only 21 games!). Finally Gallacher fell out of the team, so Battles (the guy on great form) played and scored but we drew with Wales (never played again), Yorston (the previous years top scorer) played against Ireland, didn't score and we drew (never played again). McGrory played against England, he didn't score but we won. Scotland then went on another tour, and again took 2 players you have never heard of (not sure why), 3 games, 2 losses, and a win. Should McGrory have more caps? I can live with that.

1931-32, McGrory played 22 games(injuries?), scored 28 goals. McFadyen was top scorer with 52(!!!), Dewar also had 35. I'd imagine 'cus we beat England with McGrory he got the next 2 games we won both he scored in both. Now I don't know but McGrory only played 22 games, so when was he injured? He didn't play against England and we lost, Dewar played and failed to score. Dewar then played in a summer friendly against France and scored a hat-trick. Should McGrory have more caps? It's hard to say with out more info about the injuries but you have to say no.

1932-33, McGrory played in 25 games(injuries?), scored 22 goals. McFadyen is top scorer again with 45 with Smith (a Rangers man) 34 and Boyd scores 32. McGrory plays and scores against Ireland, Dewar comes in against Wales, scores but we lose (he never plays for Scotland again). McGrory comes back against England he scores 2 and we win. Should he have more caps? Again with the injuries probably not.

1933-34, McGrory plays 27 games and scores 17 goal (a career low). Smith from Rangers is top scorer with 41 goals. McGrory still plays in the first international were he fails to score and we lose to Ireland. McFadyen finally gets a shot he scores in each of the next two games but we draw and lose (he never gets another cap). Gallacher, living on his name comes back against England, doesn't score and we lose. More caps? No.

1934-35, McGrory plays 27, scores 18. Smith, McCulloch and Armstrong all score more goals. Smith gets his second cap against Ireland doesn't score and we lose, guess what? He never plays for Scotland again. McCulloch plays in a win against Wales but he doesn't score. Gallacher(?) comes back for his final cap, he doesn't score but we win. More caps? No.

1935-36 The oddity of all oddities, McGrory plays in 32 games (the most he had played in 8 years), and proceeded to score 50 goals(!!) (his most ever), top scorer. Armstrong and McCulloch had 30 and 45 respectively. Both of them played the 3 internationals, failed to score and we had 2 draws and a win. More caps? Well this is about as close as you get to a controversy, it would be great if you could get proper stats on the season, because we don't know when he scored these goals. With 2 of the games before x-mas only the final game, against England, was going to be affected by that seasons effort. I don't know, maybe people couldn't see the value in playing and old guy who had been in decline for 3 years. Any way feast away.

1936-37, played 25, scored 18. Wilson was top scorer with 34.

1937-38, not worth talking about.

So there you have it, make of it what you wish. I personally don't have a problem with it, was he unlucky to not have more? Definitely, was it a big master plan to keep down the Tim ? No, there is a list a mile long of players from every club in Scotland who think they should have more caps.

 

And there you have it.

 

Forrest has the same number of caps as Chalmers. Of course Bobby Lennox has twice the caps, and also more caps than Ralph Brand and Jimmy Millar

Jimmy Wardaugh and Willie Bauld (2/3s of Hearts "terrible Trio) won 3 scorers titles between them during the 50s, they also have 3 caps between them(!)...Neil Mochan also has 3 caps, although he never went to the trouble of winning the scoring title.

 

Great player on his day....too hard to call on how he would have been seen in the modern era.
Great skills, and fondly remembered, but to me, Dalglish was head and shoulders better as an all round footballer.....and would have walked into any team in the world, then and now.

 

"One player who sticks in my mind is the little red haired wingers Jimmy Johnstone. He had such skill and was the kind of player I always enjoy watching."
Pele on Jinky

"On my first day as Scotland manager I had to call off practice after half an hour, because nobody could get the ball off wee Jimmy Johnstone." Tommy Dochery (ex-Scotland Manager)


"I don't think he knew what he was going to do next, so what chance did the opposition have?"
Tommy Gemmell on Jinky


"I put wee Jinky into a cab and said to the driver 'Be careful, he's second only to Jesus Christ here'. And the driver replied, 'No, he's in first place, Jesus is second'. He's the biggest character I've ever met, and I've met a few."
Hollywood actor Robert Duvall (on Jimmy Johnstone).


"For my first European match, I travelled as a linesman to France for Nantes' UEFA Cup match against Whilst there, I was introduced to the legendary Just Fontaine, the leading goalscorer of all time in the World Cup Finals.
He asked where I was from and when I said Glasgow, Fontaine's excited response was: 'Ah, Glasgow Celtic!
Jimmy Johnstone - fantastique, fantastique.'
Willie Young, quotes the great Just Fontaine.


"But then Jinky was a bit special. People ask me if Jinky was better than Wee Willie Henderson but it's not as simple as that.
"Wee Willie was probably a better provider. I think he made more use of the ball. He'd beat two or three men and get the ball over. He'd set up goals as well as score himself.
"But Jinky? The wee man would beat three players then turn around and beat them again - just for the * of it.
"But if you wanted a breather, Jinky was your man. You gave him the ball and let him run around for a minute.
"And in big games, a minute was an eternity.
"But, oh, what a heart wee Johnstone had. Billy McNeill used to tell me stories about Jinky getting kicked by the South Americans.
"But the wee fella just bounced back and ran straight at them again.
Jim Baxter.

“They adored him, you know. The Celtic fans, obviously, but even supporters of Real Madrid, who feast on football wizardry, watched in awe as he hypnotised them at Alfredo Di Stefano's testimonial match in the Bernabeu nearly 40 years ago.”
Chick Young

And Jimmy on The Greatest Supporters in the World

On the fans and the Club
"I was always aware I was an entertainer. The crowd provided the expectation, the hair on the back of my neck would go up and I loved the applause. The pitch was my stage. The whistle meant it was showtime. That is why I admired Matthews. The way he took people on and beat them, that was entertainment to me and that is all I wanted to do.
"Without the fans, you are nothing and what I am most thankful of is that I got a chance to realise my talent at Celtic, because it is a special club, supported by special people."