Playing in England

So it's probably more appropriate to say that Celtic over achieves rather than Scottish football as a whole?

 

What's the average crowds for SPL teams outwith Celtic?

 

In terms of the population of the country, quite good.

 

No, I meant for each team.

Does the crowd that a giant club like Celtic get not skew those figures somewhat?

 

Good point. I had an old thread about our Television rights being paltry in comparison to similar/smaller nations. It highlighted how (with 'them') we had (2011-2012 season) crowds of 3.116 million; without them we have had crowds of 2.396 million. That places Scotland as the 11th (with Spivco) and 13th without, most supported league in Europe. This is despite us having like 0.7% of the European population.

 

Not really.

Those figures were for the highest attendances in similar leagues, not that much different.

Historically we have averaged 30,000 crowds, we have 42,000 season ticket holders just now. Crowds are up across all teams in Scotland, so its not quite armagedon.

 

The likes of Denmark , Greece, Austria, Sweden... the best supported teams there don't get much higher crowds than Aberdeen or Hibs.

 

I meant outwith Celtic.

Where would Scottish crowds be ranked in the same league/chart if Celtic weren't counted?

 

Copenhagaen average is 18,000

Olympiacos is 19,000

A.I.K is 19,000

Now when was the last time Hibs or Aberdeens average attendance was that high

 

If we have taking to comparing ourselves against Finland, Sweden and Iceland etc then we can see just how far Scottish football has fallen. Countries with no club football heritage to really speak of yet we kind of punch above them (I would * hope so).

Sad thing is we don't really punch above Sweden or Norway as Scotland has only had one team in existence which has managed to reach the group stages of a European competition since 2007–08. Norway beat that record last year along, Sweden have had four different clubs in the Europa League groups since 2011-12.

Scotland is worse than Norway or Sweden. It's just our success masks that. In the next few years when the coefficients are upgraded to see the recent overall trend we'll all see that.

Aberdeen's fans at the cup final and to be fair, Sevco's numbers (and I believe Dundee United, Hibs and Hearts have good numbers of fans somewhere) show that there still is an appetite for football that can rival larger countries like Portugal (you ever watched a league game not involving the big three there, crowds like Scotland now). Something needs to really change.

I don't watch much football from Scandinavia but I do watch a lot of football from poor leagues in South America. They show just how bad Scottish football is. Overall technique is so poor when compared to a poor league like Peru. Just basic things like passing, dribbling, vision and tactical awareness.

Watching the Edinburgh derby today a both teams struggled to put a few passes together. Hibs could barely cross (half the team looked like kids to weak to cross on a full pitch), Hearts players struggled to keep a good back line (worst offside decision ever), players just smashed it long and hoped for the best. Few decent runs from either team, just poor.

Or the ICT x Dundee United game were the Arabs humped ICT. A fairly good game to watch but the overall standard was so poor. Dundee United didn't really do much of great quality, yet they looked good against a terrible ICT. That ICT looked like they had just been picked up outside the stadium and asked to play (and yet they reached a Cup Final, which was very poor).

The way things are now it's only a matter of time before the domestic game stops being the many driver of football here. It's only a matter of time before kids support and English team before a Scottish one. It's a scenario in the near future, and that is when Scottish football will begin to really die

Yet people go look at Celtic. We are a giant fish in a small pond but that fish will die like all the little fish when the pond dries up.

Maybe I'm just a glass half empty kind of guy :smiley-laughing002:

 

Would any of those teams take 40,000 to a cup final?

All those teams come from countries with that of around double the population of Scotland.

 

We would fall from 13th to 24th but still be ahead of Denmark and Austria, Switzerland and Greece.

To pick up on another of your points. Celtic do over-achieve you are correct. But, we are also a part of Scottish football - a representative of Scottish football, therefore we are as one, so there is no need to split the two. It still highlights how Scotland has more than achieved far more than similar or even larger nations, in terms of football. We still do.

And, as I have said, our football is not any worse than nations of a similar size. We downplay the Scottish league far too much, we always have and its silly because the Scottish league has been of quite a high standard in the past. Even in the early 2000's, it was a cracking wee league.

 

To be fair, put those teams in a league for the next 20 years that they have no chance of winning and their crowds would likely be a lot closer to those of aberdeen or hibs. Likewise if hibs or aberdeen were to ever win the league they would be able to hit those numbers over time.

Take celtic out the equation and crord numbers would rise as at least 5 teams would fancy their chances at winning the league. We play in an environment in which the 2nd best team has already conceded the title for next season. That doesnt make fun viewing.

 

hned those nations' largest and best clubs. We are Scotland largest and best club and have an average of 46,000 (its near to that anyway I'm sure). None of them have ever had an average of 59,000 like we did in 2000/01 either.

 

They are those nations' largest and best clubs. We are Scotland largest and best club and have an average of 46,000 (its near to that anyway I'm sure). None of them have ever had an average of 59,000 like we did in 2000/01 either.

Edit: awful grammer from myself there. :smiley-laughing002:

 

I think you most certainly can.

Has any club outwith Celtic added anything to the coefficient? I think it's quite clear that it's not Scottish football that has over-achieved, but Celtic. The rest of the clubs playing in Scotland have done nothing. Suggesting otherwise paints a rather false picture, as do the attendance figures in my opinion.

I'd also disagree with you're final point. I don't think you can overstate just how bad Scottish football is, outwith Celtic it's a country of glorified pub teams in my opinion.

 

But that's not what you said

Aye i know

Tbf though none of them have a capacity that high apart from A.I.K but thats also the Swedish national teams ground

 

Cheer up mate. You are indeed a glass half empty sort of guy.

Children might end up supporting an English side but I don't think so. When you are young you like loads of teams but you grow out of that - like I did, as have my mates. Celtic's the team just for me now, although I do watch other football matches.

The standard of football I suppose is subjective, I do believe we are similar in comparison to other nations of our size, you might not. What it does highlight though is the problem in Britain - our system is totally lacking but I have been hearing * things from the Scotland set up. My little brother plays for Morton under 16's and has played for Scotland under 15's and said the training is on a different level to that of Morton. :smiley-laughing002: Hopefully that permeates through the clubs in Scotland. The only difference between us and England though is the fact they have lots of money to cover up the lacking of their system. South Americans will always be superior, it has always been that way historically. Although I don't know why, they probably have poorer facilities? I can't answer that to be honest, maybe culture?

I think we forgot that we do come from a small nation, Celtic is an anomaly for a small nation of less than 6m tbh. I'm proud of that. However, even if Scotland has been historically good and comparable to larger nations, it would still be wrong to compare ourselves to them because we will just never match them. I dunno, maybe we are spoiled and we 'want, want, want' :smiley-laughing002:

The Portuguese point is interesting. I saw figures for their attendances and they were shocking but I didn't know whether or not to believe them.

 

Why don't they just sandwich the 12 SPL between league 1 and the ballon shop? That way no reorganisation of existing leagues has to happen.

The 1st divison could be between league 2 and league 1 and so on

 

Sorry you quoted me when I mis-typed and had some weird wording at the beginning

But aye, thats a fair point. However, as I said those teams are the top teams of those nations. It would be unfair to compare them to the lesser teams of our nation.

And, Sweden has a much larger population than us. They should get higher attendances across the board.