Champions League 2012/2013

Well... blame my hangover

 

Stuck a fiver on Dortmund at last 16 stage, come on!!

 

The most successful, lol, that's a bit rich.

It is not 'The most successful system in the history of football™', Real Madrid, Ajax, Bayern, Liverpool and Milan have all had similarly successful periods in the European Cup.

Barca's tiki-taka has yielded two European Cups, it is one of the best systems of all time, not the best.

Barca can hardly lay claim to the success of Spain, either, they can't have their cake and eat it too on the whole Catalonia is not Spain front. Their players have been a cornerstone of it, yes, but so have Madrid's.

Again, many would take issue with the 'most successful period in the history of international football' bit, they've won one World Cup and two European championships, undoubtedly the best spell of dominance by a European side, but Brazil's three world cups in 58, 62 and 70 compare favourably, as do Italy's back to back triumphs.

You could even make a case for Brazil again with 94 and 02, or Argentina with 78 and 86, dual triumphs only separated by a single tournament. Spain need to win another World Cup if they're to be talked about as the indisputable greatest of all time.

They are anti-Barca, they are both pragmatic and dynamic, adaptable, pragmatism is the philosophical opposite of Barca's system and the sworn enemy of Tiki-Taka fanboys the world over. Possession, possession, possession they whine.

Defensive football a la West Ham is not 'anti-Barca', as it couldn't even live on the same pitch as Barca. Anti-Barca is measured pragmatism against the single minded short passing, Messi centric play of Barcelona.

Bayern's 7-0 triumph was a triumph for a system designed with the fundamental intention of thwarting Tiki-Taka and it's imitators, how can that not be described as anti-Barca?

Uli Hoeneß is a tax dodging hypocrite! :smiley-laughing002:

Bayern can afford to look after their fans because they have immense commercial revenues, the fact that a club can charge cheap ticket prices is irrelevant to a discussion on whether or not they are arrogant.

Bayern are arrogant because they have historically been the best side in Germany, they have no German equal, they are the Manchester United of central Europe.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just the way it is. Every successful club is fundamentally arrogant, it's a by product of winning.

 

I'm hungover to * so can't be bothered debating about this but I still say "anti-Barca" football is the likes of West Ham. Long ball, no possession, defensive minded. That's the opposite of Barca.

How the * did we end up talking about Barca anyway?

 

This article is grand:

The Hard Tackle

 

Can't agree here, just because a side is better doesn't mean it's the "anti" of another side. Bayern has done a good job of being the tip of the spear of the new German system - something that Germany itself has been unable to replicate against Spain. But they are actually much more fluid than many give them credit for... they actually don't change their style very much - it all is basically just a creation and reading of space which other sides have not previously done and are incapable of doing today. FCB were amazing over that leg, but let's not forget that they came close to blowing an aggregate lead to Arsenal, a side which is essentially Barca-lite. It's not anti, it's just different. If the willingness to switch styles in a losing match is the crucial difference of Tiki Taka, then you are saying that every other club in the world is the antithesis of Barca. I hold the "anti" Barca to be the side which is rigid in its adherence to the opposite of them, namely long-ball and bunker defense.

In addition, your constant use of words like "fanboys" and disdain for how they "whine" is completely off the mark. Most people who enjoy watching them play just like the game, and so they (we?) are equally excited to see Bayern's style as well as Dortmund's. There are very few pure Barca supporters on this forum, just people who enjoy watching them (as well as anybody else who wins and does a good job in doing it). I've said it before in a more aggressive manner, but I'm really curious as to whether it's possible to understand that it's possible to enjoy watching Barcelona and Dortmund and Bayern, and furthermore whether it's possible for you to enjoy watching one without denigrating the other?

 

Thank you for saying what I was trying to say

 

We've all been where you are. :icon_mrgreen:

 

Going off already
https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?layou...wQ&oref=https://m.youtube.com/&has_verified=1

 

Aye, I've chucked it, Going for a Nando's and more beer!

 

Better than my plans. Can't find it anywhere so I'll be going to a Uighur restaurant.

 

Seen that posted on Facebook. That won't be the last of it.

 

They are not anti-Barca just because they are 'better', how you can draw that conclusion from my argument is baffling.

They are anti-Barca because their very system, philosophy and essence is geared around a style of play that is diametrically opposed to the short passing, slow tempo, Messi centric Tiki Taka play of Barca.

Pragmatism is the sworn enemy of Barca's gushing fanboys, sides that employ it are deemed unworthy and unclean by the possession zealots, and Bayern and Dortmund both embody the successful implementation of pragmatism more than any other sides in Europe.

It is not merely a 'willingness to switch styles in a losing match', in your words, it is a fundamentally different outlook on the way football is played.

You can't bring this discussion down to the level of the West Ham's of the world, they are not relevant to the top tier of European football, nor is their style of play. West Ham are not 'anti-Barca' because they do not play against Barca, they do not gear their football around a system designed to thwart Barca and their Champions League imitators like Arsenal.

Bayern and Dortmund do not belong on a pantheon of 'wholesome', 'attacking' teams alongside Barca, it's ridiculous and reductionist thinking to say otherwise.

You are off the mark here, I'm not rallying against Barca fanboys on this forum, as you point out they don't exist here. (bar one or two, but I won't name names)

The Barca fanboys are the uptight, pretentious, arrogant Barcelona 'supporters' who dismiss other teams out of hand and decry any style of football that is not slavishly worshipping at the alter of Tiki Taka and trying to imitate it.

They are the pompous, entitled little whiners that right-minded supporters disdain, and there are plenty of them strewn throughout the footballing landscape, even in the media.

I enjoyed watching Barca at their peak, I enjoy watching Dortmund and I enjoy watching Bayern, I do not need to denigrate any team as I am not beholden to them in any way, shape of form (bar a personal leaning towards Dortmund, but that does not cloud my judgement over a great, great Bayern side).

My gripe is not with Barca, nor their magnanimous and sensible fans, it is with the narrow minded zealots who insist there is only one way football should be played. That school of thought is the biggest crock of nonsense visited upon Europe since fascism and communism.

It is fundamentally short sighted, biased, arrogant, and conceited.

Me saying Bayern and Dortmund are the 'anti-Barca' is not a knock on Barca, it is a compliment. Football needs different approaches, it needs variety. Barca were so successful that the biggest clubs had to change their philosophies just to combat them.

 

You've misunderstood a bit. I didn't say that's what you said. I contrasted.

Hmm, not so much I think. Dortmund has amazing short passing ability, moreso than Bayern. Bayern's ability, as I stated, is an unparalleled understanding of space and the shape of the pitch. Dortmund for sure as well, but Bayern even more. They are both also more than capable of slowing a match down, just look at Bayern doing it against Arsenal.

I never mentioned West Ham, I was thinking more along the lines of Chelsea, who defended their way to the title last year. That's not to criticize it, it's just that I think that is much more of an anti Barcelona.

What? If you don't think we're the fanboys then why lay their arguments at our feet?

Same as above.

And how are they different from any other fanboys? Jesus, if I let fanboys determine what I liked or didn't like I'd despise most sides in world football, Apple, Microsoft, Android, most countries, etc. Live a little.

That is the calling card of fanboys, however I'm not going to throw my Galaxy out of my apartment because of Android fanboys.

Because no country (especially not England!) has ever espoused that their way is the "right way."

Mmk.

 

One doesn't have to be a Barca fanboy to hold them up alongside Bayern and Dortmund as being wholesome and good.

As I said, they're fundamentally different, a victory for either side isn't a victory for 'the Barca school'.

I don't know where you're getting the impression that I let fanboys determine what I like from, I've said numerous times that I enjoyed Barca at their peak, I simply wasn't a religious devotee to a beautiful but inherently flawed system.

Realists acknowledge the flaws of Tiki Taka and enjoy pragmatic football, the Barca puritans don't. Possession is overrated.

What do you mean by 'especially not England', I'm not arguing from an English standpoint!

Every system has it's devotees, you are quite right, back in the early 20th century the English way was the 'only' way to play and the Hungarians came in and blew that out of the water.

There is a clear symbolic link between the downfall of the English system at the hands of the Mighty Magyars and the fall of Tiki Taka at the hands of clinical, efficient German pragmatism.

 

this thread * sake calm down people getting all upset :icon_mrgreen:

 

That's your opinion and you're perfectly able of having it. But don't attack people as fanboys if they enjoy all the styles equally and hold them all to be enjoyable styles to watch.

I'll leave it to others to surmise how I've come to that opinion. And you're arguing like we have been. Either that or you're passing an irrelevant factoid off as if it's some delineation that separates you and the intelligent "realists" from those of us who like to watch it all.

The media was pretty rife with statements of Chelsea killing tiki takka. That lasted until their unfortunate match against Atletico.

Except for the fact that the eras are different. It's much easier to adapt a style these days. People are forgetting that Barca had a lot of success with real strikers, and their success recently has been in spite of those losses of Henry, Eto'o, etc., with Messi pulling them along. They have no defense and no scoring threat aside from Messi and occasionally Villa. Their problems are related to personnel, not tactics. They will be there next year, hopefully with a better goalscoring threat and a revamped defense, and they will be enjoyable to watch once again. If you're not influenced by the fanboys, then just sit back and watch it! It's very well possible that it will always be ineffectual in the face of this new Bayern style, but one aggregate tie is not enough to determine it. But maybe something changes and they are better next year without an overhaul of the system.

This is the problem I have with a lot of people in this thread, just enjoy football! It's not that hard. And before coming back saying that you do, go back and look at some of your posts and see if they sound like somebody who just enjoys sitting back and enjoying seeing people far better than him/herself doing something that us normal people can only dream of doing.

 

I'm not upset, I'm having a calm chat. :icon_mrgreen:

It's hard to convey sarcasm and tongue in cheek moments with a keyboard, granted, but I hope my tone isn't seen as aggressive. I simply have a point of view!

Anyway, two and a bit hours to go, let's hope we'll get a top notch final.

 

I actually think this is the most civil disagreement I've had in years on this forum!

 

Can't wait :icon_mrgreen: