Ki

Perfect summary of what i think Ki brings to the team.

 

It all looks very pretty on paper Mikey but in reality we the Celtic fans don't see these glowing skills attributed to Ki. We don't see these Modric and Lampard dictates of play attributed to Ki as a deep playmaker either ( which I don't think he is ), what we do see is Ki's continual * ups in midfield, his loss of possession and his failure to show energy and effort to track back.Why do you think Ki is behind in the pecking order for taking free kicks behind both Mulgrew and Stokes ? I'll tell you why because Lenny is exasperated at the amount of free kicks that Ki has utterly wasted, so therefore Lenny dozen't trust him to score or even get them by or over the defensive wall anymore, that is the truth of the situation.

I will ask again the same question I have asked all through this thread

1. When did Ki last score for us ? - someone please
2. And additionally now when did Ki last score direct from a free kick ? - someone please

 

Did your pal Lennon tell you this over a pint last night aye?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

how many midfielders have scored more then Ki?

 

He doesn't have a better record than Forrest or Ledley, per minute Ledley scores every 417 minute while Ki scores every 419. Forrest is considerably better than both of them scoring around once every 350 minutes.

 

Are there stats of Celtic players' covered mileage, during games? I'd like to know Ki's. Nakamura was called a lazy imposter as well, when in reality he was doing a lot of running.

 

Technically gifted in what respect? People keep saying this on here about Ki but they dont actually quantify it?

The reason he doesnt get an extended run of gams when we have a full squad is because there are better players in the pecking order ahead of him and to compare him to Lampard and Modric is absolutely deluded.

You make some valid points, but they are just your opinions and dont really count for much. If we had to rely on Ki every week then I would despair at the quality of football that would be on show.

His "technical ability" that you are so fond of amounts to nothing more than a consistent display of sideways possession football which slows our play down and rarely takes us forward. He will occasionally boom a long crossfield ball but again, usually it isnt that incisive.

He cant tackle, cant header, has poor positional sense in the side and yet has had over 80 games for us now, but people still think he doesnt get a chance.

I think there is a good chance he will be gone in the summer, hopefully we can recoup our outlay on him. He is one player that hasnt developed as well as most fans and the management would hope that he would have. Bar the odd flash now and again he is too inconsistent.

 

You save me alot of typing kemosabe. Thanks.

 

Me too.

We're so much better on the counter attack, and we will be relying on this a bit in Europe next season. With Ki guilty of slowing play down, I'm not sure why people continually insist he is suited to European games.

 

Admittedly I am only referring to the SPL, simply because I don't have to hand the EL or domestic cup stats to go with it.

I find this quote a bit silly though

Ain't that the whole point here? Everyone's opinion is equal it's who can come up with any reasonable argument.

All I'm seeing from everyone else is "he's NOT got technical ability"

all I've listed is his superior (SPL) stats to other midfielders. I can also cite some excellent performances (crunch tie against Rangers last season where he bossed possession 10 vs 11) he also turned out well in Europe (especially bursting forward against Udinese springs to mind) Oh and the Cup Final last season -what a goal!

But what really gets me at times is when 99% of the team are playing poorly, the first person (assuming other scapegoats for the day, Georgios Samaras or Cha Du Ri aren't playing), I find at CP and online the FIRST person out of many to be singled for vitriol is Ki.

Often he's doing rather well compared to others. That's just my worthless opinion though!

I've got more to add mind, just a few things off the top of my head:

At age of 23, he's a mainstay in the S.Korea squad (a superior team to Scotland, Wales, Israel for example)
He had an excellent 2010 world cup, holding his own in the deep-lying midfield role particularly against Argentina. No mean feat.
He's got 45 odd caps for his country at this tender age.
Has been voted S.Korean footballer of the year in the past.

and something from the manager:

"He is definitely coming into that [10 million] bracket." I think Ki will get the club a lot of money one day,’ stated the Celtic boss. ‘He is a real asset for the club now, a wonderful footballer. He’s everything you would want in the modern-day midfield player.
‘He is 6ft 2in, a fantastic athlete and very good on the ball under pressure.
‘He is good at passing, excellent with both feet and has a goal in him, as we saw again on Saturday.


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Again, I'm not necessarily saying he's better than Brown, Ledley, Kayal etc. I'm just saying how shocked I am at how little appreciation the guy gets, how eager people are to criticise.

Doctor Venglos earlier for example saying "Is it any surprise he's 4th in the FK pecking order? With all the free-kicks that he WASTES".

That is utter nonsense, he takes about 5% of the direct free-kicks if that, and therefore of course your free-kicks scored on paper is going to be lower than those taking more. This is the kind of BS that makes me despair at this thread.

 

This isn't a difficult concept.

When people in football compare the styles of player, it *is not necessarily* a comparison of ability or market value. It is a comparison of style of play alone.

An example here is Jody Morris of St Johnstone. His style of play is very much in the style of Xavi (except without the talent obviously). A small, technical midfielder who likes to dictate play with clever passing.

It's nonsense to take away from that "mmikey thinks Jody Morris is as good as Xavi". Silly logic.

 

Im not saying he hasnt got technical ability, far from it. But his fans seem to point to the fact he has the best technical ability in the side. What is it then? Its not his first touch, which is no better or worse than most of the team, in fact I would say that technically Stokes is the most gifted in that area and has a wonderful first touch (most of the time). Its not his passing, unless we are counting those mindless sideways passes that he is so fond of. Commons is a better long ball passer in my opinion, and both Commons and Mulgrew have a better delivery.

So what is this technical ability that makes him stand out?

And I dont think Ki is a scapegoat, he gets criticised justifiably in my opinion, many others do as well. Hooper, who is our top scorer gets grief along with Stokes, Brown etc. Samaras was someone who came in for a lot of grief, I count myself among those. Im still not his biggest fan, but I do appreciate the impact he has made of late.

Ki's biggest fault is his consistency and his failure to progress since he came here. He has had ample opportunity. You say he is often doing well compared to others, who then? When we have a full side with Kayal etc fit, Ki wont be a starter. The manager has shown that this season, to the benefit of the team. Though I appreciate he is a decent player to come in at times.

You make good points about his achievements with South Korea but, sorry, they dont matter a jot to Celtic, its how he performs at our club that counts. I remember we sigend a World Cup winner in Juninho and his performances didnt add up to his international experience.

You mentioned a couple of games last season when he did well. Wont argue with that. But that is the problem, there are too few games where he has played to the level we require from him all the time.

And Lennon isnt going to come out and say he is worthless is he!! He probably feels that Ki will be the one player to move on and is going to try and market him for as much money as possible. I usually look at what the manager does rather than what he says, and he has used Ki less than others this season.

I dont believe Ki is a £10m player and if we got anything more than we paid for him it would be good business for someone who is a squad player.

He is a nice guy etc, but he hasnt developed, and doesnt look like he is going to either.

 

I never said that you though Ki was as good as Lampard or Modric, but its absurd to compare them.

Bit like saying that you could compare Gary Hooper to Pele because he likes to score goals.

Or compare Forrest to Messi because they like to dribble.

What you are doing with this comparison is implying that they are in that company of talent. Its silly. Judge him on what he does in the SPL.

 

I disagree with most of your argument here however Kemosabe has dealt with most of the points made. The highlighted point though is not very well thought out. The reason he only takes about 5% of direct free-kicks is because of how poor he at taking them. At the start of the season, when he was in the team, he took roughly 50% of free-kicks, those which benefited a right-footer. Last season he was our principal free-kick taker for a large chunk of the season, occasionally in tandem with Commons or Mulgrew. The reason he now takes so few is because of his frankly woeful return. As I said in a post earlier in this thread he has never scored a free kick for us in the last two seasons at least. Every other player who has taken them, no matter how many they have missed, have actually got one in the back of the net. So it is not utter nonsense but fact.

 

I've disagreed with people who have said similar in this thread before, South Korea would never qualify for world cups if they were a European team while all the teams you mentioned would be world cup regulars if they played in Asia. Personally player for player I believe Scotland have a better team than South Korea.

 

You do not know the South Korean team much, I presume. Most people here do not. It is a dangerous team to face, and has been on the rise since 2002. They beat Croatia regularly. And people here like to think of Croatia as a great footballing nation.

 

South Korea would cream Scotland, unfortunately.

 

It would be a close affair, because of the resilient Scottish playing style. But Korea is not as bad as mike91 says it is. We got cocky against them and got soundly beaten. Uruguay had to fight hard to win in the WC.

 

In terms of playing on the field it wouldn't be close, Scotland would be 'resilient' yes we usually are but we would end up on the losing side anyway.

Put it this way, South Korea are far better than the Czech Republic team we failed to defeat and absolutely shat it from going 460.

 

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His first-touch is fine for a CM, no need to analyse that too much. He is the best passer in the side – most matches that he features (and there have been videos pictured) he comes out with a decisive pass of some kind. This “mindless sideways passes” comment is a) exaggerated and b) precisely how you misunderstand the purpose of a deep-lying midfielder.
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That’s not what I said. My beef is where the whole team is playing poorly, Ki is often the first to be singled out. A certain level of criticism (for any player) is obviously going to be justified. It’s where the default action of a fan is to criticise 1 player over any inferior others – that’s where my problem lies.
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A good example is the “two headers” Cup match. Ki was arguably our best player on the park that day (hence bursting forward from midfield in energy sapping fashion to gamble on crosses – no other midfielder barring Joe Ledley tends to do that). But people remember him for the two misses, which while I admit he should’ve scored, were actually quite difficult.
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That is completely disputable. Last season when Ki fought his way into the side (sometimes relegating Ledley to the bench) – he stayed there until the Asian games. This season he’s been disrupted by similar factors and once you’re out the team it’s difficult to get starting again. In short Celtic’s midfield has suffered so many injuries etc that at no point has Lennon been forced into choosing one player over another.
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This isn’t a good example at all. Juninho was signed by O’Neill post-seville when we moved back to 4-4-2. Juninho operated *specifically* as a number 10 – and hence no room for him in a 4-4-2 team. Juninho’s been quoted on that.
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This argument works both ways – except you haven’t provided any evidence on the contrary. While I have provided good performances there are hardly any negative to be picked out that couldn’t be levelled at any of our players. Not enough goals? See Scott Brown. Not enough assists? He’s our best CM in that respect. Lapses of concentration? See Mulgrew, Wanyama, Hooper, Kayal at the highest level.
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Again, you’re concentrating on the wrong part here. £10m is a ballpark figure but read about what Lennon cited as qualities. The composure, athleticism, creativity etc.
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To summarise, I’m not here to argue with you guys and convince you that Ki is our greatest midfielder. My opinion is that he gets an unfair share of criticism, often plain incorrect and sometimes properly ludicrous.
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He’s at least up there with Brown and Ledley, and in many ways provides creative moments that the others central midfielders cannot.
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We’re just going to have to agree to disagree here. At no point has Ki ever been our principle right-sided direct free-kick taker. I should know, I used to bang on about how he *should* be – but that’s never been the case.
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It’s clear that Mulgrew is a superior taker, and Stokes has scored an acceptable number of attempts on the right, so this isn’t a point about me complaining that he *should* be 1<SUP>st</SUP> choice taker. It’s that people in this thread wrongly cite him as a poor taker when he hardly gets the chance to prove it! How can people come to that conclusion from such a narrow set of examples? (I’ve also said his corners are very good, with tangible examples, which you’ve glossed over)
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Again, this is all by the bye (although personally I find the idea of a team that have done well at national level considered better than <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Scotland</st1lace></st1:country-region> in *any* sense… well an example of our own heightened self-delusions)
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Take the ELO rankings – largely considered the best rankings indicator of any – which takes into account relative size and quality of the opposition over a sizeable length of time. S.Korea are ranked 20ish and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Scotland</st1lace></st1:country-region> 40ish. Make of that what you will! It still doesn’t remove from the fact that Ki is an essential and creative part of a very respectable national side.
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