Celtic Supporters Thread (contains GB chat)

Why is it knee jerky ?

Our team are judged on our performances in Europe now, since the death of the huns. Yet again we witnessed a disgraceful performance against a supposedly weaker side. Our last 2 signings have been a striker from Dundee Utd and a guy plying his trade in the Scottish Championship. Now we have another loanee from England who's probably played about 5 games in his career.

Edit - Sorry forgot the guys who both played about 15 games for Bolton between them.

Anybody who can't see the way we're headed had their head firmly planted up their hole.

 

Some of us, who are not business experts, struggle to understand why a football club needs to have millions in the bank. Why do we need to do any better than break even?

 

Yeah, millions will be watching our Europa League games, so they will. :smiley-laughing002:

 

Was speaking to someone I know at half time today next to the food stalls. We were discussing the events of Tuesday and so on. He mentioned the banner and thought it was spot on. Another Gentleman next to us said it was a disgrace. "Who do they think they are" and so on.

The banner today whether you agree with it or not, was the opinion of a selection of fans. By the same token, any individual could have done likewise. The same opinions have been expressed and several threads have been started discussing the very points.

As for the arguments of its influence on the players. Well, from what I've heard, the players were made aware of the fans thoughts immediately after the game on Tuesday night. I think/hope that would have more impact on upcoming performances, than a banner.

 

TimTime I don't mean to sound patronising here, but your Sole Trader/Partnership business (I'm guessing) does not operate like a football club. And funnily enough I do indeed have an understanding of business hence my qualification.

There is no fundamental need for a football club to be in the black. How many successful clubs are actually making money?

Let me break this down for you. There is always risk involved in growth whether that be with regards to a Sole Trader, Apple, Amazon or indeed Celtic FC. Why? Because it means you need to spend your money instead of storing it under your proverbial bed. What Celtic cannot afford is not to be in the Champions League. As with any economic activity whether that be in markets, stocks etc, you need to speculate to accumulate.

Management of debt? A PLC who can quite simply source more finance from Share Issue. How many Celtic fans in the world? Moreover, we will always be selling players due to the league we play in. This is the equivalent to the assets that a Sole Trader will have TimTime. Therefore, debt management is not as scary as it may seem for a Sole Trader like yourself.

 

What is break even one season will be different the following season , last years accounts and now this years are going to be well down, yet we will still have to pay players wages, keep the club running and the stadium maintained. We have seen from previous years and indeed from the transfer fees we have received that there is not millions upon millions sitting doing very little mate.
I would liken it very simply, to an average household there should always be an emergency fund to fall back on.
Now the argument can be 'how much is an adequate emergency fund' and that is debatable byt what isn't, is the wish to run at no profit at all. That will eventually end very very badly.

 

I think the point he was highlighting was the inconsistency in the post he was criticising with his question.

TBF if you really think about it, the man who calls the shots is DD. Lawwell et al are professionals, employed (for all practical purposes) to run Celtic like he wants us run. AFAIK, DD's record as a businessman is one of buying businesses, growing them and then selling at a big profit. If he wanted to keep Celtic the same size and run us at a large profit to line his pockets as some fans claim, he would surely buy us outright and make us a private company again, rather than being the majority shareholder of a PLC. Even then the income he would get would be chickenfeed to a man like him and not at all in character.

I have yet to see any evidence we are being financially mismanaged TBH.

 

Yeah i know what you mean in that respect, I don't blame the board for not going crazy with money, of course there needs to be a balance in what we spend. But what is that budget? The likes of Monaco, Dortmund & Fernebache etc have CL budgets but are very inconsistent in Europe and their league.
I don't think it's a lack of ambition.

 

Who would buy these shares when there's little prospect of the business growing significantly in the near future unless the EPL had a change of heart about admitting us?

Do you have any evidence that we are storing money? I'd be very surprised if we are.

 

Unlike PLCs like Apple, we have an emotional connection with Celtic and many will buy shares if it means that they can help the club and have a say in how it should be run (democratically NOT as an oligarchy)

 

This is turning into a business debate. Nobody wants to see us go extinct like the huns but the board haven't invested enough in the team imo. Obviously no guarantees but if they had bought a couple of decent players prior to the Malmö game, chances are we would now be raking in the millions that come from the group stages.

 

If you look at the team that beat Barca and think about the money made from that champions league campaign.
What progress has been made?
* all.
Instead our best players were sold to * teams and absolutely no substantial investment made in bringing in champions league quality players.

So the banner is spot on in my opinion as far as the boards concerned.

Gutless is a bit harsh though.

 

But you know that in practice DD runs the show because of the way we're structured and will certainly never approve any share issue that changes that. :smiley-laughing002:
Furthermore, they've already gone to the well twice in that regard and a 3rd time, at a time when so many Celtic fans are struggling to afford to go to games or even feed their families is not something I'd want to rely on for something as important as servicing debt.

No, it would need to attract investors to be successful and to do that, there'd have to be some real prospect of joining a bigger league.

There is no earthly reason for us to store money, it's simply not in DD's interests.

 

Players have to want to come and that's hard even with the CL carrot, without it, the SPL is a very, very hard sell.

 

I understand what you are saying. Desmond is part of the cog. He is a very very rich man who would see it as penny change if we made the champions league and he takes a portion of the money. Therefore I see it as there being no appetite for him. I doubt Desmond has any emotional ties to Celtic and the club making the Champions League. This is all speculation from myself, granted.

Every person who supports Celtic is a stakeholder to the club. Share Issue is one area of raising finance. But on a more basic and 'real' level, if there was more investment in the team, I could assure you that there would be an increase in Season Tickets as people could go to enjoy the football. I extend that to things like Police Harrasent too in which the board have by no means covered themselves in glory. Also, we would be in for making more on CL packages etc. AND of course the CL TV money.

 

I'm confused by your last post. How can Desmond take any of our money when we're a PLC?

 

DD is our majority shareholder. He will take his dividend every year. The point I was making is that the financial difference between CL and no CL will be minimal for a man as rich as he is.

 

Don't worry about it , you are certainly not being patronising at all, given your opening post and follow up post. I will admit to now being very surprised you struggled with my straight forward question to you in the first place now and even more surprised with your 'spend spend' follow up post. I am just glad I didn't just ask if you had been sniffing glue or something, as I very nearly did :smiley-laughing002: Hayho though everybody seems to be qualified.

You are right very few successful football clubs make money however they have access to massively larger income stream/sources than we do and have owners that have 'invested' money. Our model includes neither of these , in fact we have been told that we have to be self sufficient and sustainable on plenty of occasions now.

Thanks for breaking down on how apple etc work. What I will say to that is we can not afford to be taking on to much risk. You say we are not spending enough money so how much have we stockpiled then , you are qualified and will be able to see how much is spare and doing nothing.
Ah yes the old speculate to accumulate quotation. As has been said repeatedly, Malmo was assembled for the price of Scep.

Oh so the PLC just needs to have a share issue to wipe out any debt and or use that as a debt management tool, very good lets just view the fan base as some kind of emergency fund system. Selling players, wait a minute we already do and when these assets have been realised they are incorporated into the accounts and from them we see that there isn't 10's of millions sitting doing nothing. I have already said about the importance of having an emergency fund. Christ this is getting painful.

Oh, and in regards to the sole trader/partnership assumption, without giving you a full run down lets just say it was 'slightly' more than a sole trader . However it will likely be a sole trader in future, as I cant see myself retiring at this age. As I wont be prepared to just carry on for an employer, as the old saying goes 'teachers teach doers do'

 

Good on them.

 

Maybe I have watched the Godafther too many times, but you don't wash your smelly drawers in public or let any other * see how much we are * off. I agree with some of the sentiments of the banner (yup the team where shitebags, but I dont think we are badly run at the boardroom level) but I also dont think public displays do anything else other than give our enemys ammunition to laugh at our expense.

I know it may sound petty, but thats how I roll.