Celtic are the new Arsenal

I think there's a fairly obvious sense in which this is true. Both Wenger and TM were brought into their respective clubs at a time when the team was being criticised for not being entertaining enough football-wise. Both of them are very much committed to an exciting passing game. And both of them seem to have concluded that the way to do this is to buy foreign players.

Walter Smith by contrast is best-known for two things - (1) his insistence on building the team around Scottish (or N.I.) players and (2) his notoriously negative style of (anti)football.

Depressing to say it, but I'm pretty sure the connection shown with all three managers - of foreign players with entertaining football, and Scottish players with anti-football - is no coincidence.

 

I wouldn't like to see a time where the Celtic team had NO Scottish players in it. I think it's good to have at least 2 or 3 Scots in the team to maintain some sort of identity.

 

We've got a fair few coming through the system though & hopefully they will be good for both us & Scotland.

Feruz being the opposite of McGeady in the whole "nationality" debate.

 

Most Scottish players are * anyway so I wouldnt want a team of them :bbpd:

 

*, I hope we aren't the new Arsenal. If I ever see the fans at Paradise cheering as a young player is stretchered off the field after a horrendous tackle I'll cry. Sorry, just on a bit of an anti-Wenger/Arsenal tirade at the moment.

 

Scottish players generally arent good enough to fulfill Celtic's ambitions, the ones that are command massive fees and wages that arent in proportion with their ability.

We need players that are good enough for our ambition and within what we can afford.

Hartson is Welsh and had talks with Rangers before signing for us because he failed their medical, anyone want to hold that against him??

Larsson wasnt Scottish the last time I checked....anyone having a moan? ETC ETC ETC

Nationality means * all, players can learn to appreciate a clubs history, you dont have to be Scottish or hold a Scottish Passport to learn what Celtic is all about

 

tynecastle will become a supermarket or high rise flats.

 

snatcho provo can qualify for scottish citizenship, i wouldnt want that little fudbucket near our team. nationality means * all , if the young scots are good enough they will get their chance ,if they are not then i have no problem whatsoever with any foreigner taking their place as long as they do the business on the park.

 

I don't think that is necessarily true. Take Caldwell, Brown, Maloney and McGeady to be examples of guys developed in Scotland that can dominate in the SPL, do a good job in Europe and are entirely retainable. (I know Caldwell predictably buggerred off to England but I'd say that was more to do with personality and the relationship with the fans)

I'm actually quite surprised how easily it sits with some fans to neglect homegrown players on the basis that they perhaps don't have the right mentality or ability to price ratio.

But this attitude compounds the problem. Take Danny Wilson at Rangers - I don't think Walter Smith would've played him in a million years given our finances. I reckon a championship cheap johnny foreigner (albeit with experience) would've been taken in in a heartbeat. He'd still be languishing in the reserves but now they have a very capable Scottish CB on their hands.

Is the attitude - 'there are cheaper better foreign alternatives, so what?' Because in my opinion we have more than an obligation to put the interest of Scotland before flimsy monetary gain. A core of Scots can do the business.

 

Don't bring Novo into this

The issue is managers searching for a quick fix will happily sign or be too quick to sign cheap johnny foreigner rather than giving a young Scot a chance.

 

I think we are overspending on Brown for a start. Caldwell was developed in England. Maloney only came back because he failed and hasnt done much since. McGeady is a true exception. Danny Wilson and John Fleck wont sign new contracts at Rangers and Boyd is weighting up his options.

Its a case of managers not caring what Nationality the player is. Why spend 20k of Caldwell when I can get Hooiveld for 10k. It has happened under your nose but you are glad that Celtic didnt give in to his demands.

My initial point stands. Is Gary Kenneth, Mark Reynolds, Steven Hammill, Zander Diamond, Charlie Mulgrew etc good enough for Celtic, do you think that they be worth their fees and wages? Flood & Killen scenarios are popping into my head.

When we do find a talent, its no doubt that they could earn more money in another league and the question of whether we are prepared to pay to keep the talent. We got rid of 2 Scots because money talks, we got in a player hopefully his equal for less money.

This is the EU, free movement of everything and everyone. The conservative, romantic notion that we can somehow get back to anything like Stein did is dead and buried. If a Scot is good enough, they'll want to play in a bigger league, we'll have to pay over the odds to quench that ambition (scott Brown) or let them go (Gary Caldwell). Its that Simple.

Its not neglect.

 

I would argue that Caldwell was more developed at Hibs than his time in England - similarly there is an argument that Maloney is every bit as good a player as McGeady and is certainly close. Brown we may or may not be paying too much for, but injuries aside he was POTY. Caldwell's head wasn't turned by money it was turned by fans imo.

Scotland can develop and keep the best Scots. The only reason Boyd won't stay (and Fleck/Wilson) is because the financial disaster that is Scotlands Shame F.C. if they were at our club we could keep them for at least 4 years as we have done with McGeady/Maloney/Brown/Caldwell and down a tier Robson/Hartley/McManus/Wilson.

Your point that money sucks the best Scottish players to the Premiership is one that applys to all nationals. If Crosas becomes good enough he will go south likewise with McDonald, N'Guemo, McDonald etc. That isn't centrally a Scottish problem.

I know that managers don't care about nationality and on a basic level I am content with that. That isn't anything ground breaking that we're all aware of.

But the more I think about it the more it doesn't sit well. I was embarassed for Chelsea when the fielded the first non-English starting 11 and the same when Arsenal done it. By no means am I blinded from reality by simple romanticism because these teams were a little forced into doing that

Strictly speaking I'm not even criticising the recent Celtic setup - we've taken in, developed and kept a core Scottish bunch that have served us superbly in Europe. But I want to see it kept that way instead of selling out the Scots for the sake of saving a few bob. Why give the 17 year old lad from Aberdeen a chance when we can take in cheap johnny foreigner. All signings are an *educated* gamble where we have to respect the manager and assume such and such a signing will be better. But I don't think there's any doubt that more can be done to support the Scottish game, perhaps more on the SFA side - generally Celtic have done well in this respect.

Some of the posts in this thread have summed up what I don't like - "No Scots - who cares?" I think that attitude is a neglect to the country. We are the biggest team in Scotland and we should realistically be able to keep the best Scots like (ahem) McGeady, Brown and Caldwell. I personally believe that Scottish players understand the values of Celtic F.C. more than any foreigner (barring certain exceptions) will. Anyone watching the Football Years last night might know what I mean. I think Henrik is literally the only exception.

If there simply aren't CL level Scots about at a fair price then fair enough - but that isn't the reality.

 

If there simply aren't CL level Scots about at a fair price then fair enough - but that isn't the reality.

Name the Scots that would be competent at CL level

 

Immediately - Maloney, Robson, Caldwell, Brown, Weir, Boyd(?), Macgregor, Miller, K.Thomson. In the EPL Gordon, MacFadden and D.Fletcher. Perhaps for the sake of the argument McGeady as well.

In the recent past there have been a good few Scots who have risen to about the group stages level, guys like McManus, Whittaker, D.Marshall, Kennedy (o.k. moot player), Marc Wilson, Hartley (finished now), B.Ferguson (same) along with guys that are unproven but have a decent shout of making that standard such as S.Fletcher, Naismith, Driver (kind of along with Fox), Fleck, Wilson maybe even Lee Wallace.

In that "immediate" list there are at least 12-13 players who are CL group stage level or round about, and then probably a lot more who are a good SPL standard. Of that 13 only Fletcher is someone the Old Firm honestly couldn't acquire and keep with Gordon only just out of reach I reckon.

 

Of those, who would be worth the money that would realistically would take to bring to Celtic would arent here already. Consider the wages and their loyalty to Rangers. None are really worth the hassle.

Hearts would have their hand out for Driver and Wallace and they'd be players that would take the best offer on the table and you know well that it would be a few clubs that would be interested.

Quite simply, you believe that there is a pool of untapped Scottish talent that fit Celtic's requirements and criteria, I dont. Even with our huge youth development structure and Rangers too, the quality of youth players being brought through is disappointing. You can argue that they arent being properly handled but if they were good enough, they'd be playing. The only youth player that left egg on Celtic's faces was Shay Given, all the others that left with promise, e.g. Liam Miller, flattered to deceive.

 

Don't be telling me what I believe! :icon_mrgreen: I'm saying we've been doing well in the past (not so much now), but I'm not enchanted with losing Caldwell (only ourselves to blame imo) and Robson who are 2 Scotland A players.

I'm hoping it's not a bad omen for the future. Of course Hooiveld or basically anyone should replace McManus for example. Yes he's Scottish but he simply isn't good enough.

My quote was actually more forward thinking - as I said - there will always be a pool of Scottish guys good enough to be challenging in Europe and we should be doing enough to keep them here, obvious exceptions aside. All I'm saying is it'll be a sad day when it is a generally accepted attitude to say "No Scots? Who cares." Within reason (i.e. not offering Caldwell say 20-30k/week) enriching the Scottish game is a duty of the club.

 

Do you think Scott Brown is worth what we are reportedly paying him?

 

In the last 10 games I saw him he wasn't worth £100 a week. I'm prepared to put that aside what with his so called injury and I think management have to take a slice of blame there.

In the POTY year, I'm not sure what we're paying him but what is it 20k/week? 25k? I would saywithout a doubt yes. I also think he can get better even than that year.

 

But Celtic are changing the coaching from the bottom up at the club in order to produce a string of talented young Scots in 5, 10, 15 years time. Much like Arsenal did.
They are now getting players like Gibbs, Wilshere, Lansbury, Eastmond coming through - and there will be more to come.

In the meantime, we are looking abroad to bolster the youth ranks while we wait for the changes to take effect. Much like Arsenal did.
They brought in guys like Fabregas, Clichy, Van Persie etc.

So in that sense the thread is accurate, even if the quality is on a much smaller scale.